Is the Push for Racial Diversity an Issue of Fairness or Divisive Identity Politics?

Thank you for tuning in to Healing Race. In this video, Andre and I discuss whether or not there should be a push for black people to have more equal representation in media and positions of power, and we react to some of the critiques of that push. Should we strive to include people with a wide range of experiences and perspectives in our media and leadership, and those doing so in any way conflict with being fair and impartial? Let's get to that conversation. Enjoy. Because you brought up multiple times. And again, this is all coming from the conversation of how you what you wish kind of the larger white community would know about the black community, which brought you to the question of, well, how are we presented? Right? For the larger white community who may not know or may not, you know, on an active basis may not hold in their mind, you know, visions of the black community as a loving community. So, you talked about the way you're presented and some of the conversation about presentation is also equal presentation. Right? Equal representation in magazines and whatnot. So, it's the way you're presented, but it's also being presented fully. Right? And some have critiqued this push for race or I or ethnicity or identity-based representation as being identity politics, as dividing us. Right? And I'm wondering how it feels to feel like you need to advocate for that representation, but then I guess, having people wonder or question whether it was solely because of race. Right? So, Supreme Court justice, right, recently. Right? Joe Biden said it's gonna be a black woman and then followed through on that. And my retort is what's wrong with that as long as what is being done is right. Yeah. So, explain that more. So, what I mean is let's take that to the nomination and confirmation of Ketanji. Is it Jackson Brown? I think Jackson. Maybe. But the most recent supreme court justice. Yeah. You know, the high court is in service to the constitution, and some feel the intentions of the founding fathers. But even more basic than that, how can one serve if one doesn't know anything about the perspective of its people? And, you know, you were lacking the perspective of a pretty important voting and political block in the United States, black women. Mhmm. And the court has always felt incomplete. The country also feels incomplete by not having a female president. You know? Because I just brought up and said, why have we not had one? Because so many countries have had their head of state, I mean, or their leader, you know, prime minister, whatever, be a woman. And just like in all of these years in the United States, it's just never happened. There's something that feels incomplete about that. So, let's say take that voting for, you know, having a female president. Yes. One may argue that's identity politics. But to me, that is a 10 gentle observation if the person is more than qualified and if their nomination confirmation is the right thing for the country. And when I say the right thing, I'm not talking with respect necessarily of moral or, like, right as a liberal or right as a conservative or wrong as a liberal or wrong as conservative. More so from the s from the point of view being balanced. You know? You know? Justices and judiciaries and all of those j words, try to be balanced in their analysis. Because I think I really do feel that they know they're holding real live people's lives and their families in their hands when they're deciding cases. And relevant precedent is the cornerstone of law. It's the cornerstone of law. So when these opinions are written, let's say, from lower courts and even in the high court, they're going to be used to interpret future cases well into the years to come. Mhmm. And you were just lacking just a fundamental perspective that needed to be presented, represented, and shared by not having a black woman on the high court and by not having a female president. And so that's what I mean by saying, you know, okay. Fine. That is because, look, we can't escape our identities. We are the things we are. I am a man. I am of African descent heritage, etcetera. You know? But when we make that the central factor just for those things’ sake, that is not right. But if those things are just a part of an otherwise well qualified candidate whose time has come, then I don't see the importance of even of it. So, you so there's 22 things that I heard you bring up. 1 is the idea of what is right is being balanced and, you know, balanced in representing perspectives whether on the Supreme Court or otherwise. Or even the house of representatives. Because I recently mayor reported a fascinating article about how what's our we are the last part of the gen x generation. Basically, people in our age group and previous generations would have attained much more political power than our generation. People who are basically from 1965, 1980, like, 1979, when we went, we all would have been born. Right? And how by now, we haven't even had a president of our generation yet. And it's you know; we're sandwiched between the baby boomers and these millennials. Now there's millennials. And yeah. And the and the article was saying that there's and there's a, like, an out of balance right now in US politics because our generation is so small, and we haven't really attained much political power. And that needs to shift in order for the country to get back on the right footing with respect to representation and making sure all the voices are heard. Mhmm. Right. And so, whether it's in politics or media or corporate America, other places in corporate America, beyond media, what is right is what is balanced in terms of representation of experiences and perspectives, whether it's based on race or ethnicity be serving a country, I feel. Yeah. Gender. And so that's how you're one aspect of what you're defining is right. Yes. But only because these people are in service to the country, and the country is everyone, not just you and all the people that think like you. Yeah. And how do you take it in so I hear your kinda intellectual response to someone who would say, let's not make it based on race. Let's not focus on race. How do you how do you take in that critique emotionally? What do you, like, what do you what is your sense of kind of where that could critique is coming from? Like yeah. How do you myself the question that I ask about every person? What is this person's motivation? So, what's this what is and the motivation I always ask what's the motivation. So, if I don't have an emotional response until I feel I've figured out the person's motivation. If the motivation is nefarious, is that's the reason they're saying it? Like, oh, let's do believe identity out of the equation because it's some sort of nefarious way to yield a benefit for that person or their group, then, yeah, I have a negative, you know, response I know. Or negative emotional regard feels bad to me. But if I feel their motivation by making the statement and wanting that particular thing is not nefarious, then I'll say, okay. Well, let's follow this path and let's see. Yeah. And so, they might come from perspective. Yeah. They could have kind of self-interested motives. They also might come from the perspective, whether it's in media, business, or politics that choices and decisions should be made based on what they might say is an impartial set of criteria. Right? And your answer to that seems to be to make that critique is to assume that we don't meet that criterion. Right? That, yes, there's a value in broader representation of perspectives and backgrounds and part of what molds us in this country is race. And so that perspective, what is right is to have that perspective represented. And, yes, impartiality, especially in the justice system is important and impartial criteria to gain positions like a Supreme Court justice are important. But to assume that seeing value in representation means there's a lowering, or not meeting of criteria or a standard to Mhmm. Is biased and or maybe just, you know, blinded, Nefarious. Assumptions or maybe nefarious. It could be nefarious. It could just be a blind spot. Yes. But you're basically saying to this is an extra value, broad representation and perspective. As long as we're meeting criteria and you still support the meeting of criteria, that actual extra criteria are important for the country. And we shouldn't assume that those other criteria are not being met just because we're also including race. That's kind of your retort to that. That is a that's a great summation. And it gets it just gets back to this kind of balanced both sides of the pie. Right? Right? One side of the pie could be, yes, race does in this country throughout the decades and centuries. Race has molded our experience. And to and to overlook that or neglect that is to neglect the truth about how our country has acted and continues to act. That's half of the pie. And the other half of the pie is impartial criteria, meeting standards, gaining supports to be able to meet for communities to be able to meet standards, right, because of past inequities. Yes. And we gotta acknowledge looking for handouts. It's not either or. Yes. Just a fair shot at this American dream. You know? Don't get me wrong. You have some people, yeah, who are looking for handouts. But most people, minorities, you know, people of color are living honest lives, and they just want their shot. And but because of history and institutions, you know, they've been largely shut out of some of that. If not, some would argue all of it. The next thing you say is wisdom. You know, you already kind of hinted at that. We didn't really take it up. It might be good to take it up a little bit now that I think about it. So, let's listen quickly. Let's take that up and see if there's any other conversations because you did mention the, like, you know, white means right idea. No. I didn't mention it. I said, and white dudes, I wouldn't think they know everything. Before I ask white women, they'll tell you. They're like, they do. They always know everything. Well, why don't we just jump into the conversation? Because another thing that you brought up another thing you brought up in that clip, in in in that episode was the second thing beyond that you have heart as a community, that you have wisdom as a community. Yes. And I guess how do you what does it look like? Because I don’t, I don't know what it looks like. Right? What does it look like to know that you're like, how do you know that your views are being discounted because of race, and what does that even look like? Like, what's the experience? So, I'm gonna start by sharing my definition of wisdom. So, my definition of wisdom in this con in the context of this conversation is the collective set of experiences and knowledge that have been and that have been, you know, amassed and integrated and woven into a knowing for a person and for a group of people. And whenever we try to share those experiences with what the knowledge that we learned from it and what has been integrated into a knowing as black people, we get shut down. So, when we like, just the whole very fact that we are having this conversation. And I privately thank you, when I'm watching one of the edited episodes for not trying to shut me down when I tell you this is my truth in terms of how living in this country has felt for me as a black man. And I know so many people are risk ready to refute what you have to say, or well, you're too sensitive or, you know, whatever. But, you know, when do we just sit and say, you know what? I may not understand it, but I acknowledge that that is your truth. I mean, we see it in our own families. Right? When in familial conflict, and you try to bring something up. I was never like that. Yes. Okay. I accept that in your perception of the event, maybe you didn't feel as though you behaved this way, but that's how it felt to me. And just sit the other person sitting and saying, I accept that as your truth. You know? And let's figure out a way to move forward. And when whatever no one ever gives us that consideration. You I mean, the fact that you even are sitting here listening, just thoughtfully listening to me is so much grace because there are many others who wouldn't. They'd just be ready to shut down everything I have to say. See. You know? And then they bring out what the bullet point of characterizations. Lazy, but he wants something from the nation, doesn't wanna contribute, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So, what does it look like in terms of in terms of being shut down? Is it so let me get more specific. Do you have experiences? Have you had any experiences? Is it like you see a white person share their experience, and it's listened to and then you Yes. To experience We see that black people, we see that all the time on talk shows. Like, we see that all the time. Oh, really? Tell me more about that. Like, yes. There is a desire to lean into what white people have to impart. And that's fine. Their perspective is valuable too. I'm not saying it's not valuable. I'm just saying don't forget to listen to all the other perspectives even if they contradict something that feels intuitive to you. You know? So, to give you, like, you know, tangible examples, I mean, when I mean, there's just I mean, there's so many I can barely even do it. But just the general ethos is you, you know, there is a support for white existence to help them and make sure they succeed as a race. And that's part of partly in institutions, and there is kind of a lack of support for people of color and for black people. If anything, it feels like there's a desire to throw up roadblocks for black people and people of color, so they don't have successful lives. Because part of them not having successful lives keeps the perception of white people being on top of this sort of social cast thing that we don't wanna talk about in the United States, but it's there. Mhmm. And so how does that connect to wisdom the wisdom? Well, because you're not listening to key information that you need to take in for the future. So, the way that's connected to wisdom is, like, when you when someone is telling you the house is on fire, oh, it's just the toaster. The house is on fire. Oh, it's just the toaster. Eventually, the house burns down. To me, the way that's connected to wisdom is that everyone can give valuable information. So, let's not discount or marginalize or not listen to anyone. We need to listen to people. We need to listen to their perspective. And I don't mean just to hear them. I mean, thoughtfully listen. Mhmm. And do you have experiences where you share wisdom and then a white and it's critiqued or discounted or not given the full, you know, listen through, and a white person will bring up the same point in its gospel say a gospel. It's in the scriptures. Now does that actually does that actually happen in Yes. It happens all this while you you're asking for it. Look. I'm sure look. Once this is released public, you'll have tons of people writing in with specific examples. Yeah. I'm just more so with an example off the top of your head. But well, for me, I'm more so think of work experience because I I've experienced it in employment situations. Okay. When you're especially, we all know corporate can be very heterosexual, white, and male. I am black and gay. And so, I'll give a perspective, like, you know, on a process or it doesn't have to be anything, like, big. And it's like, oh, okay. Interesting. But then 2 weeks later passed, and then a white colleague gave that same thing, yes. We need to do something about this. We need to dah. You know? Or, like, I'm I've learned it as a black person. You have to stand up for yourself and when you have a 3rd party employer. I did it just yesterday when someone was characterizing as, you know, a situation that happened at work. It was with a, you know, setup of a part of an IT thing, and that it was done incorrectly. And I said, hold up. Nothing was done incorrectly. Your people gave incorrect instructions, and we configured this object for this data object per your instructions. When you get your instructions right, that's when you get your configuration right. That's your problem, not my problem. And I learned. I was like, because of that, people will kinda steamroll over you. You clap back. You clap back. You clap back. Yeah. And you make them hear you. So now that I provided that timely feedback, and then the white woman came in and she said, Andre is right. Yeah. There was a mix up in the instructions, and that's why the data object was configured, incorrectly, and this is how we remediate. I'm like, well, thank you for, you know, supporting me, but I told them that already. Yeah. And so, your connection with the wisdom piece is that through the experiences that you've had of not be not having your wisdom, your thoughts, your perspectives listened to, is this kind of adaptive mechanism to kinda to speak up? Cut back. I use colorful, explicit language. I mean, that that's a that's a that's a really interesting I think it's a really interesting I was texting my mother. I said, mama, I said, I have a b I t c h that claps back. I said, girl, look what they tried to say about me everywhere. Uh-huh. I really did. Like, I told my mother about that. I'm like, I wasn't raised like that. You don't just come to me like no whatever. You get you act like you have some sense, and we talk this through. And I think that's it's an interesting commentary on general the general movement to speak up about and speak out more forcefully about black issues in the country. Right? Mhmm. Because if this is happening on a so, you're expressing it on an individual level, but I also know you feel this wisdom point on a collective level. Mhmm. And so, your thought is the raising of the voices is because when you're not being heard, that's what you do. You raise your body. That's what you do. That's what you do. Yeah. I mean, when, you know, Indi, our daughter, you know, doesn't feel like we're listening to what she's trying to say, she yells at us. Right? She says, pay attention to me. I, you know, I got something to say. So, I have something to say, and then you need to hear it. Yeah. No. That makes sense. But yet that That's a wonderful example too. That then is represented in a way that that then reinforces this kind of angry black person. Yes. It's like the lifting, like, you're not listening to me, so I'm raising my voice. But if I raise my voice Lower your voice, ma'am. Yeah. When will and when would have to raise it if you were, like, thoughtfully hear what I'm trying to say. See? You are now you're starting to get it. You have evolved because I have struggled. And I told a friend that I don't understand what he doesn't understand about this. And, like, I text you last night. Oh, the love you. I said, I wish I were you. Yeah. Just, you know, just be everybody be attracted to me right in the system and have all that support. You know? Yeah. And that's where you come back to empathy, it seems to be. Right? Because the lot not listening is kinda based in, it seems in your view, a lack of sufficient empathy. Right? And so maybe that's where you focus, why you focus on the empathy portion. Like, have the empathy to listen, to ask questions and listen, to kinda stop this other process that's happening, which is the not listening, the raising of voices, the assumption that this is just an angry group of people who are Mhmm. And to put it like Yeah. To put it like another friend said, when those when people aren't empathetic, it makes you wonder, do they feel that we deserved all the things that happened to us? That we deserve to be enslaved. We deserved Jim Crow. We deserved separate, not equal. We deserved making 35¢ less than white counterparts. That we deserved it. And that Gotta make go ahead. No. I'm done. That hurts. That hurt is what you were saying. Yeah. So, then I was just when you were just saying what you were saying, I was thinking, okay. Well, what would my reaction be if I were to feel that way? And it made me start to think about even having these even having these conversations. Because if you feel or you wonder or you if you had the experience that people don't wanna listen, and if that feels to you like there's an assumption if you don't deserve x, y, and z. Right? I could imagine it being hard to enter into conversations if your experience has been that they aren't there's not full listening going on. Right? Yes. Right? Because then it's like, oh, am I gonna have to feel like another person just assumes I don't deserve that my Yes. Choice. Yes. And what I think I deserve is not really deserved. And one of my aspirations for this show is that you and I both serve as models of how to have these conversations. That's honestly how I inform people about the show. Because I always say season 1 is great, but season 2 will be absolutely astounding. Because that's when you'll see the model that Todd and I have crafted after 26 years of friendship at work and being deployed with people who really want to challenge their perspective. Like, it's gonna be wonderful. Absolutely wonderful. I have no doubt. So, this really so I'm just circling around to a last piece then, just putting things together from our past conversations. And you had asked no. Your family had asked why, you know, why are you being so open in the conversation? Like, why you, you know, why how are you at the point where you're willing to have this conversation with Todd? Right? And we talked early how you were very lot quieter at the beginning of our conversation. And you said that your answer to your family was when I learned that Todd had true curiosity and respect, and he couldn't listen. Mhmm. So, what you're saying is show the true intent to be empathetic. Mhmm. Show that respect for my point of view so that we don't have to go through this cycle of Mhmm. Not being heard, not feeling like the other person feels you deserve the same things they think they deserve, and that that whole other cycle of then needing to raise one's voice, then being viewed and are perceived a certain way. And that whole negative cycle, it's like it's gotta start from that basic empathy, curiosity, and respect, and then we can have these open these open dialogues where we learn a hell of a lot more. I mean, your increased openness has increased my learning. Right? Because when you were closer, I couldn't learn as much. But these little honestly, sometimes it's the little stories, like the little story you just told about someone asking you if you knew the speaker of the house. Like, the little things. Quizzes. I get quizzed. I'm out trying to have a drink and white people quiz me to make sure I'm smart. Oh, Lord. When's the last time you've been quizzed, Todd, on the street? I don't know if I ever have, Andre. See? There you go. Everybody in this, I don't know if I ever have. I really don't. I don't know if I ever have. I certainly haven't had, you know, my going to Stanford, you know, question. I was told I was lying. I said I know. I always tell people, why would someone lie about that? You can easily call the university. You can then call the university. Like, this is provable. This is there's evidence. Easy to find evidence. Yes. You anyone can call the university and say, I'm, you know, trying to check on references for so and so. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. But, you know, the little things, the little experiences really make a difference. You know, there's a question of how often this happens, and, you know, I know it's hard to tabulate. You know, you don't there's just no way to tabulate. I mean, some there's research that's been done on some of this stuff. But even just hearing the small experiences and then extrapolating to some set of people who have assumptions, those little things are really informative because they help Thank you. They help me to understand what your experience has been, and what has and those experiences that have shaped, you know, how you see our country, the world, and how you need to approach it. And just to say one other thing. Sorry to interrupt you, but I think this is important because I don't know if this is the right term, but I guess I'm gonna use it. I'm a double minority. So, the reason I know that this works because it has been done in my gay life. When I started coming out to people, people had all sorts of notions about gay men and what we were. And a lot of people like me not to be explicit, but they like, how do you have sex? Or who's the man and who's the woman? And, like, all these questions. And I as long as they were coming from a place of empathy and true curiosity, I said, I will answer any and every question to the best of what I know. And it really did foster a lot of likes, oh, okay. I never knew that about gay guys or whatever. I can only speak to the gay parts. I'm a gay man. But I but that sort of sharing of personal stories and things, that makes it makes it tangible for people. That's when they learn. That's when their horizons are expanded. Yeah. And it could either correct misinformation or it can actually lead, I would assume, to, the understanding that there's, like, shared experiences even if it's a different form. Right? Because, you know, masculine and feminine dynamics in in a in a gay relationship and, you know, sharing that or the normal things that come up in in any relationship. You know? One messy person, one ordered person. You know? We've talked about that, you and I, before. It's like, oh, you have those conversations? Mhmm. Yeah. You know, we're human beings. You know? So, yeah, I can see that, and I think it translates into the conversation about race too. That's at least how I've experienced this. Yes. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open, real conversation about the race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now here's a scene from our next healing race. I'm crying for a few reasons. Number 1 is the story is moving, and I've heard Holocaust stories before, but I don't believe in our friendship. I never really heard, I before, but I don't believe in our friendship. I haven't really heard as much of your grandfather's story as you just shared, but also in the common humanity that I while I did not have your grandfather's experiences, our thinking I mean, I mean, his thinking and my thinking were not dissimilar. Yeah. When he didn’t, he did not trust people who weren't Jewish. And I've essentially told you I don't trust people who weren't black. No. Like, you're there are definitely some parallels into your, you know, from your grandfather's framework and my framework as well. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.