Is It Disrespectful for a White Person to Adopt Black Culture?

Thank you for tuning into Healing Race. In this video, we discuss the all black majorette dance team started at USC that received criticism from people who think that majorette dancing, which has its roots and plays an important part at historically black colleges and universities shouldn't be represented at a predominantly white college. We talk about the tension that can exist between cultural sharing and cultural appropriation where people from one culture inappropriately or in an unacknowledged way adopt parts of another culture. On one hand, there is a natural tendency for culture to spread, which is important because it can bring people together across cultural divides, and it shares the inspiring diversity of human cultures. On the other hand, when a part of a group's culture is strongly tied to their identity, to their historical traditions, or perhaps to some painful parts of their history, others adopting it can feel disrespectful or even exploitative, particularly for groups who have historically been exploited. How do we navigate that tension? Let's get to that conversation now. Enjoy. So for you, you felt like for starting this this majorette dance group at USC, even if it wasn't in an HBCU, it felt appropriate to you. It felt it felt like. But I'm also not an alum of an h c HBCU, and my friends are not alums, as well. So I do understand how there could be a cherishing of tradition. And, especially, I mean, you go people are, so I don't think I think this university we attended doesn't have as much of an emotional experience as in other universities, especially given that probably a lot of African American students were the first to go to college, and there's even a double pride to go to an HBCU. Right? Yeah. And what I I'd say all of that to say that the events and the traditions are cherished, and they're personal, and they're and you paid for this education. So you definitely feel a sense of personal connection. And to see that sort of, like, taken up at a school that's not a part of the tradition and the legacy, I could see how some people would find that offensive. Uh-huh. I personally did find it offensive, but I'm just looking at it naively from the perspective of just a dance troop. Like, oh, and you're trying to spread that awareness, especially when it comes to stepping and step contest. Right? Mhmm. Things that grew out of African American sororities and fraternities. Yeah. That's what Beyonce's homecoming was all about. Yeah. Well, I guess I guess this this brings up a larger question of the spread of culture to me. And that's like COVID. You can't stop it. Yeah. And so well, I'm and at the same time, I'm interested in your in your thoughts on it, this whole this whole conversation around appropriation. And I mean Well, let me ask you a question. Would you consider it offensive for people to appropriate traditions at non-Jewish schools? Or, I mean, there are I mean, I know I know about kibbutz, but there are also Jewish educational institutions where you have your rights and traditions. For example, when certain pop stars wanna start studying Kabbalah and make that trendy, I'm a go ahead and say, just sue me, Madonna girl. You know, I'd like you. I was watching Madonna, the documentary last night. So first of all, Mary and I have Madonna tickets. I'm so excited. And I'm excited because she's getting older, and this may be one of the last times she tours in her life. And this is gonna be, like, a big, big tour. And I remember when Tina did this. Tina did that last tour, and she's like, I'm going away, and then you never saw her again. And so Madonna may do something similar because Madonna will turn 65 this year. And in part, in the documentary, they covered her interest in Kabbalah and surrounding herself with rabbis and teachers. And I was like, okay. She's always been critiqued for culturally appropriating things. But Mhmm. Like you just said because we need to turn the tables and ask you some more questions. But, like you just said, you can't stop culture. So how does that feel to see a person taking an interest in something that's mystical and so personal? And I don't know if kabbalah is central to Jewish tenet, but it's definitely in the family. Right? And how does that feel? Yeah. I mean, listen. I can understand people. So for me, it doesn't feel I sit in the same place, I think, that you sit, which is I don't have any deep sense of feeling of protection of Jewish heritage. Like You didn't feel like Madonna was, like, appropriating something or making it trendy? No. I mean Cool. Because I mean, so many people started doing it and wearing the red string. Right. I think there's I think there's valid critique of her and or even what she was learning. I mean, there will be people, there have been people who, you know, spend their lives studying Kabbalah, who critiqued where she even got that from. Right? Because it was there's a center there's a center in Los Angeles. I think there's also On Robertson Boulevard. I've been by that center. Yep. Exactly. I tend to tell the tale. I get wrong. And there's some people who think that's it's maybe watered down. I don't know about the level of accuracy, but at the very least, watered down or, you know, not seen in its fullest, you know, the Kabbalah is not seen in its fullest, you know, truth. So, and I think that's all good. I think critique of, critique of expressions of wisdom or cultural expressions, I think is okay. I'm just not one to feel like, like I almost think the spread of a culture is a positive thing. Right? And that's what I felt about the dance troupe. I'm like, she's just highlighting this wonderful tradition in HBCUs. I don't really find this offensive. Yeah. I mean, well, I'd be but there would be things that you would, I think, maybe find offensive. I mean, this almost brings us back to, you know, conversations around when I asked you when I you know, our conversation back when we were in college around cornrows. Right? And I saved him from a horrible fashion choice, but the shape of his head. And also, bitch y'all from black people wondering what in the world is he doing around with cornrows. I was trying to protect you. Yeah. So what so what so what is so I can understand parts of the impulse. Okay? So I can understand the impulse of we were slave labor, we were owned, and there being an instinctive reaction about the taking of things and then the commercialization of it. Right? So the benefiting from the taking of culture when so like, even in that article around the majorettes, you know, one of the points that one of the HBCU alums made was, well, look at all the look at all the, the notoriety they're getting, the news that they're getting there at USC, like, where has that been for majorettes at HBCUs all of this time. Right? Yes. And, that that that comes from a real place because not all, but many notable, HBCUs have small endowments. And so that kind of notoriety is what brings donations, corporate sponsors, etcetera, whatever the university needs to bridge the financing gap, and that largely hasn't happened. Now there's some debate as to why I'm not getting into that. You need to talk to Marin for that because she knows all about that. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you so if you think about the difference between Judaism and Christianity, right, Judaism is not a proselytizing religion. I know. Christianity is. And there's a sense of kind of closed, you know, closed ranks, you know, in Judaism, especially in some of you know, there are there are sects of Orthodox Judaism that don't even think that, you know, converts can be Jews or certain kinds of converts can be Jews Mhmm. Or that certain expressions of Judaism. Right? There's a purity test in the sense. Right? And there's a fear of the watering down of Judaism as it should be, right, according to, you know, the sects of Judaism. And so there's kind of a closed ranks around it. And whereas for Christianity, there's kinda more of a spreading. Let's spread the word. Right? And I tend to be more on that latter side. Right? I'm not a Christian. Yes. Right? Like, it's okay. You don't wanna you on one hand wanna guard the tradition, but on the other hand, you'd like notoriety about the tradition. Right? Like, if you want it to be out there, then it's gonna be taken up by people is my basic thing. Right? People are gonna find intellectual interest in what you're doing. Exactly. And they'll wanna emulate. They'll say, oh, that looks cool. I wanna emulate. And that's really where I was coming from with the cornrows. It was like, I think it's cool. I mean, listen, I bleached my hair for soccer. I shaved my head 1 year for soccer. I did all sorts of different things when I was in high school as a way of expressing myself in different ways. This But see as black people, you're taking something that it almost feels as you're taking something that's demurred for you, so fashion. And for us, that symbolizes so many other things. And that's why I can see both sides of the dance troop sort of controversy, if you will, because, you know, what's fashioned for you is our lives. Right? And it almost seems as though that if you're not doing things that are done in certain ways, have a lack of regard for respect for the institution. Getting to the question of motivation. Yeah. Like, why would someone want to join a dance team? I think for black people, we have always been to say what mister Roland Fryer said on Coleman show. He said, you know, black dignity is important, and black dignity is important. It's paramount. And there have been so many instances in which things were appropriated without a regard for our dignity. I mean, blackface. Right? Sort of so blackface was an attempt for white audiences, white Hollywood producers to in to bring black people into a space, but on the terms of the audience who really didn't wanna have them around anyway. So they would turn into tropes, watermelon eating, you know, all these different things, you know, we're don't swim. We're afraid of this. We're afraid that all these different things that have been portrayed, you know, and Al Jolson became famous for it. Right? Yeah. So when it comes to people wanting to engage even in within our own community, we're very skeptical of, okay. What is the real motivation? Is the real motivation to take away to draw attention away or from the dignity? Because to those people, the HBCU, the dance teams, and all of that, even the sororities and fraternities, those are important because we created our I mean, they're almost not even almost. I would venture to say, they're kind of cultural to white culture because we weren't allowed. And so and that's a part of counterculture that we very much want to preserve because so much great so many great things came out of that. I mean, you have personal relationships. You have people who, you know, had a real how would you say? Like, a real sense of belonging at a university where you had many, many, many, many people look like them. You know? Mhmm. And it's almost as though when someone is outside of that world and trying to mimic that world, it's almost a disregard for and I'll tell you another example. Because Marin is an AKA, and there was a I don't know where this is now, but it's sorority. Yeah. It's an AKA. It's a sorority. Yeah. But there was a period in, the culture, probably in the mid 2000 where gay black men were starting analogous organizations to black female sororities. Right? And I think there was one start where they and they started to adopt variants of, you know, various calls, colors, etcetera. And the women in many of those sororities, I'm thinking principally the AKAs and the deltas, found that deeply insulting. And many, I mean, many black gay men were on the fence about it, and many of them didn't see what was wrong with it. I saw what was wrong with it. Right? Especially when you know, and we'll get into sisterhood in the broader show. But when the notions of sisterhood and belonging and acceptance, right, even if those have conditions around it, because the AKAs were famous for not accepting, women who were darker than a brown paper bag, that's sort of kind of a notable thing with them. That's not the case any longer, but it was deep, deep, deep in their history. And so their level of their level of insult was really high because they're like, you're basically disrespecting our traditions and the origins and where we come from. You know? It's different if you wanna start an organization that is foundational, but you have you develop your own ways and means and things like that. You don't copy what you see. And I think it's the feeling of copying is what feels disrespectful. Mhmm. You know, I don't I don't have anything in my life that is analogous that that is analogous to that probably because I don't feel any strong. I'll give you another example. Yeah. Like, black people just been exploited. So there was a period in the culture about 7 to 10 years ago when white gay men were going around saying, I'm a strong black woman. And I've had white gay men, because I was partying back then in the bars, say this to me. Like, I'm a strong black woman. And of gay men, black gay men, and of Latino gay men of other cultures were giving them feedback. That's offensive to black people and black I mean; you're you are this white gay man saying you're a strong black woman. And I remember having a conversation with, my best friend, Maren, about it. And I remember Maren saying something so poignant, so elegant. She said many people want our outward characteristics that define us and that sort of define strength to us, but they don't want our struggle. And I remember 1 white gay man, you know, he said, I'm a strong black woman. Why were they saying this, by the way? Why what was the genesis of saying this? Like, what were they trying to communicate? What were they trying to express in saying this? Survivorship and strength. I see. Okay. Alright. We'll go ahead, so we'll wait. It's in a very, very different context. I see. And I said, do you know what it means to be a black woman since I was raised by 1? And to be a black woman, and I started shouting off all these statistics. I said, first of all, do you know that only about 30% of black women will ever be married in their life? Do you know which mean what that means is there's a lot of man sharing going on in our community. And do you know, and I started just I'm telling all these things about black women, and the white guy just kinda shut up. I'm like, because essentially, when you're a strong black woman, you're saying you are a black person. And many of them had no regard as to what it meant to be black. Like, in the broader conversation, I said, do you know that the data has proven that black people, for example, mister what mister Friar said, black people are more likely to experience, non-lethal force by the police than any other race. Now he said very educational. I really like that interview. He said, now when you go to the lethal use, of course, there really is no statistical difference between the races. But when you look at nonlethal force, it's happening in a much more pervasive way, and black people are 53% higher to pre to experience nonlethal force even when nothing went wrong in the engagement with the officer. You were compliant or whatever. There's just that thing that needs to be for whatever reason, people need to be aggressive toward us. Right? And when I start talking about what it means to be a black person, we pay more in bank fees. We are less likely to get approved for mortgages. If we do get approved for mortgages, which is a gateway to wealth as you know, in this country, it’s at a higher interest rate, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And it's like so when you start saying these things, where you think you're where you believe you're behaving as an ally, you're actually behaving in an insulting manner. Right? Because you're saying something glibly or blithely without any reference for what that person has actually been through or currently going through. I'm keen on this being a self-identified gay man. Well, I do. I am gay. I like dudes, and I'm marrying 1. But, you know, I'm like, I I'm fine for allyship, but there's just a whole other not it was kinda something I wanted to bring up with you. I was like, there may be people who not wanna deal with us because I'm gay. And so, like, just because a person is advocating for social justice in one arena, doesn't mean they advocate for social justice in all arenas, girl. Yeah. Yeah. Listen. I can so in this particular example, with the strong black woman, I can actually, in, in that case, understand that, I mean, that's, that's at the core of like, that's an identity, a black woman and a strong black woman is an identity, right? And that, that, as you say, comes with a, a kind of history. Time Magazine wrote an article. Strong black woman is in reference to a kind of struggle that those strong black women had to endure and be resilient in the face of. Right? And yes. And to say that you are that identity without fully understanding it, From a white woman. With fully understanding it and then saying that somehow it was equivalent, I can understand hurt feelings around that. That is that is something I can understand because probably a little bit because people do that all the time with the holocaust. Right? Right? People do that all that. They say this, you know, this is like the holocaust or that's like the holocaust. It's like the quintess that it's said a lot. It's the quintessential thing to say, you know, to emblemize, you know, persecution on the on the deepest levels. Right? You know, killing, the wiping out of a people. And so, and they say it in ways that just are just nowhere near anything like that. Right? Mhmm. So that I can understand. Now do I get do I take offense to that when they say that even though my grandparents were holocaust survivors? I actually I don't take offense to it, but I understand the hurt feelings behind it when people do have hurt. But would your grandparents take offense to it as survivors? Would they? I mean, I would have to imagine yes. Now they weren't they weren't people who look to the outside world for validation of the struggle that they, you know, they are never Yeah. They knew what they endured. They, you know, I was lucky to get the stories that I did. There’re so many more stories I didn't get, and they weren't the ones who were, like, signing up to go, you know, do interviews with Steven Spielberg to capture their stories, right? Maybe they would have, I really wish they would have, I wish I knew more of, even more of the stories than I do, but they weren't shouting from the rooftops as anything that was painful to talk about, right? They did, I think, in moments when they felt comfortable. It was usually at a Shabbat dinner where the 3 of us were talking about things and then it would lead to something that they would share, more so my grandfather than my grandmother, because my grandmother really kept things deep inside and was only in very rare moments that she would open up to tell me something that had occurred. But, but that's so that's probably a little bit why. But, yeah, I mean, I think I think it would be natural human behavior to if they saw anyone comparing what they endured to something so much more I don't wanna take away from people's hurts, and we shouldn't get in this this shouting match of, like, this this this competition of who hurt more. Mhmm. But, you know, issues you know, I talk to I talk to Indi all the time. She goes you know, she has, you know, gets really upset about small things. Right? And then I have to tell her, okay. Let me show you stories. Let me show you stories of people who struggle. And it's not that I wanna take away from her sense of hurt in the moment, and I want to know what frustrated you, what upset you, and I want to honor her feeling. But I also want her to have a sense of context of there are small things in life. There are smaller things and there are bigger things and bigger and there are really tough things in life. And, you know, most of the time, the people who are experiencing the really tough things are not the ones complaining because they had to endure it. My grandparents did not complain about their past. Never once did they express emotion? Of course, they did. But did they ever, like, complain about the life they were given? Never. Not once in all of our conversations did, they say anything. So, you know, I try to give her context. So in the same vein, someone who is comparing whatever, you know, difficulties they're experiencing socially for whoever they are or whatever may have, event might have happened to the Holocaust, I think they probably, if they ever heard that, would have been hurt. Which is why I can understand in in this in this example, of the strong black woman, why that would be hurtful, for black women. I'm wondering what the connection is to something like a like a cultural expression like cornrows. That's what I really that's what I really don't understand because if I were to if I were to have gotten cornrows, it would have been I mean, it wouldn't have been a blackface. It wouldn't have been I'm trying to be derogatory to black people and make fun of them by wearing this. Yeah. But how is a person supposed to know that? So my question to you is what would be the motivation? Why would you even want because there are other ways to be an ally, for lack of a better term in my mind right now, than adopting a hairstyle. Right? So what would be and I'm not saying I'm not advocating you should or shouldn't. Well, at the time, I was advocating You're advocating not to. Right. For whatever the motivation. Yeah. What would be that motivation? Because you but keep in mind, the people on the street don't know you. And so to keep you from getting jumped, you look running around here as this white child with these corn rows. Yeah. And I'm like, okay. How am I supposed to take that milk? Well, yeah, I don't I well, I would ask the question a little bit back to you of why it would be taken negatively but let me just to be fair. Would it not, given the history in this country? Well, I don't maybe I don't know enough about cornrows but let me let me just let me just share a little bit and then hear and then hear what you have to say about cornrows. Indy comes home on a regular basis having seen someone's either clothes or something they did with their hair, some kind of expression and wants to emulate it. Right? She wants to experience having that kind of braid or ponytail or dress or whatever it may be. And I've experienced it as a natural response to see some way of expressing some oneself visually and wanting to emulate it. And it's not for the purpose, you know, maybe, you know, of being an ally even. It's not to say I wanna be I wanna have solidarity with black people. It's really, like, that's a cool way to do your hair. Like, I never even thought of that. I would just wanna experiment and see what it would look like. So it's just a basic kind of instinct of learning, cultural learning that, that I just think happens all, all the time in a variety of different ways, that's what the motivation is. That's where the instinct to do that is. Now I can understand that sometimes that might happen with certain things that are particularly cherished or have an emotional with Indian people. Yeah. Could be So because my thought in all of this is that because we all don't have a world, history book in the in our mind, you know, you have to be you have to have a care with those things, and there's a certain way. I respect that a person may just have an interest in something because they think it's aesthetically pleasing. I totally get that. But you still have to have a care when you're dealing with something that's of a culture that you're not, right? In doing it in such in a way that's responsible. I circle, but kinda like back to Madonna, because for the ray of light album, she was running around with that henna hole. I like she challenges me too. I like people challenge me. And she got flack for that. They're like, first of all, that's Durham. I don't I'm not fully, versed in it, but it's done for wedding ceremonies, and it's a cherished thing that symbolize a bride getting married. It's not done for fashion. And so for people, especially when you're dealing with colonized people, right, you know, and people who have been, you know, basically chattel in the country you're living in, it is very, very important to ask yourself over and over again, am I doing this in a responsible way? I don't have a motivation of malevolence. And but number 1, the people on the street are not gonna know that. So how can I do this in such a way that's responsible? So I don't wanna say, well, you just things are just off limits, because that's just shutting people down. But it definitely has to be done in a responsible way that honors the tradition. Right? To speak of cornrows, I don't know the entire history of cornrows. I can't stay in hair on my head. This is why I have this haircut right now. But what I do know is that cornrows are a symbol of Africanness. Right? And we so you have to understand something. We were brought here. Most of us are the descendants of slaves, so we don't know our ancestral history. I only find found out my bloodline by going to ancestry.com, and it gives me some maybe tribes that I may be a part of. So we're completely disconnected from, a huge part of our Africanness and more so concentrated in the Americanness of that African American identity. Right? And so what that means is but I've kind of the trend I've seen among African American people in the u in the US is to cling to any learning they have about their authentic Africanness. For example, I'm 68% Nigerian, and I was like, finally, I have something to, like, to cling on to, like, yes. I am part Nigerian. I can say that. That's been proven through a DNA test that gives me a people I can tie myself too Yeah. Just saying I'm black. You know? What is that? And so my point is that what for you may be fashion for other people is a symbol of an identity. An identity, they're quite frankly for many African Americans slash black people in the United States that there's, you know, they're searching for the complete picture of. You know? Listening to Coleman's interview with Roland Fryer was wonderful, and it reminded me of a painting. And I was like, there's so many aspects of being black and African American in the United States where the painting isn't filled in quite yet, and it's usually those African parts. We're trying to get that clarity of, like, what is the complete history or in my evolution as it in in this country. It isn't completely filled in. And so for some people, those cornrows may symbolize a part that's still patchy, but we're still filling in. Like I said, I just learned that I'm part Nigerian. Now that stands to reason, be given where, you know, it captured people were taken from, and enslaved persons were sold. It stands to reason probably many African Americans slash black people in the United States are part Nigerian. But before that DNA test just to give me a makeup of my ancestry, all of that was completely patchy to me. Mhmm. So what is the feeling? So understanding that and understanding that. So understanding that feeling of disconnection and desire for greater connection to one's ancestry. And then the idea that for some people, cornrows, for instance, is a specific way of presenting yourself might be connected to that identity. What is the feeling and what is behind the feeling with all of that if someone sees someone of another race, if a black person sees a person of another race with cornrows? What is upsetting about that given what you just described? What's the reaction speak for other people, but I can speak for me. Okay. And for me, what's upsetting wholeheartedly is that you've reduced something of significance to black people to a fashion statement, and that's insulting. Mhmm. And you wanna know why that's insult? I think because I really, really, really, really, really, I always take things back to slavery. And as a cook, you know, like I said, and it because it you know, you hear about slave times and picking cotton picking cotton. And then just in the study of the history, and then all of that coalesced one day. Do you know what that cotton was supporting and supporting the European fashion industry? Mhmm. That's what but that's what all that picking cotton was doing. So you were you were sporting around in all these, you know, laid it in these garments of those times, off the backs of slave labor. So when I see you, and I'm only speaking for me. I'm not speaking for the whole black people or all the world. I'm speaking for me. So when I see you reduce something that is obviously emblematic of Africanness, just what I feel is something that's fashion, where we were exploited in the name of fashion and in the name of food? What do you think the, the, those, those plantations in the Caribbean were sugar plantations that was for European confections in Rome? And so when I see that, I think number 1, that's a white person who's disconnected to the fullness of history. Mhmm. And number 2, you did something without really thinking about it. Mhmm. And also what's even what's doubly insulting is you did it without the regard of the emotional impact it could have on others in this world community. Mhmm. Because I don't I mean, I do have a star of David, but I don't go around wearing that publicly. Mhmm. Because I don't because I'm not Jewish. Mhmm. And I don't want anyone to think that I'm blithely taking the struggles of Jewish people or even the exploitation and isolation that was felt in all of these in all of the centuries your people have been on the planet. For granted. Yeah. I do that with a fore thinking of being sensitive to your people and the history. I wear the star of David beneath my clothing out in alignment with your God, but not because I want to do anything to disrespect you or your people. Mhmm. So I think I'm getting a better sense of where it comes from. There can be 2 motivations behind some physical presentation or expression of who we are. There can be one that defines an identity and people have done this throughout time, meaning tribes back in the day they would have a certain ear pierce or a certain painting they would do, or they would do, there was something they would do so that you would know who's part of the group and who's not part of the group. Yep. And those things that were part of the group came to have some kind of symbolic meaning for that group, for people in that group. It binded them together in some way in, in, in a, in their own community. Yes. And then there are sometimes where we present ourselves to just express ourselves individually, let's say. It could also be cultural, but, but not with any regard to an identity. Right? And that's what we call what you call fashion. Right? And the purpose of fashion or I wouldn't say the purpose of fashion. Fashion's a form of expression, but one of the motives often behind fashion is spread. Like, no one produces fashion. Some you know, very few people in in the actual fashion industry produce it to not have it to not have it be taken up. You want it spread. You want people buy you know, you know, a lot of people have talked about American culture itself, like, spreading around. Like, you know, people want American culture to spread around whether some people like it or not. Right? And so the purpose of, you know, identity-based expression is to guard it, right, and to have it be pure to those people who for whom it who identify with that, and then the purpose of fashion is to spread it. And when you I think that's important because when you're dealing in circumstances where people have suffered in the name of the identity, there's a reason that there's a law being put forward to not discriminate against people based on their hairstyles because people were being discriminated against based on their hairstyles. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, in that Yes. And that is somewhat an expression of certain people's hairstyles. 1, are thing that have been passed down. I mean, they're both of these things at the same time, and 2, are based on the kind of hair that they have. Right? Like, people learn to do things with their hair based on the kind of hair that they have. And so to tell a black woman or man you can't do this thing with your hair, which is the thing culturally you've done with your hair, and 2, that fits the kind of hair that you have is a way of excluding people. Right? In in in in this case of appropriation, it's the idea of not just being able to express it, but it's also the idea of being able to control it, in some ways. And, you know, I don't always I will admit, I don't always under I understand better now that you've explained it as kind of a marker of identity where the feelings would come from. I do understand a lot better when you share it that way and the disconnect between what's a what's a fashion choice and what might feel like an identity to somebody. Maybe it's just not the way. Maybe I just don't have those things for myself that I Or if I run around looking like a Hasidic rabbi. Yeah. Well, I mean, but I'm not a Hasidic I'm not a Hasidic rabbi. Right? So I don't I don't I personally as an as an individual, if I saw someone with payas, Peyus is the curly the curl. Sideburns. Right? If I saw someone Peyus, I just would be like, oh, hey. You wanna do that? That's fine. Like, I don't I don't have I don't have a feeling of I mean, Orthodox Jews are gonna continue being Orthodox Jews with Peias. Like, they're just gonna continue to do that, and whether someone else wants to do it. Where I understand more is when someone is unequally represented. So I don't really know the history, but when what was it? Bo Derek had them as well, she did she had cornrows? Yeah. When she wore cornrows and the idea that she Invented that hairstyle? Well, no, not that she invented it, but that she was porch like that she got represented with those cornrows in ways that maybe, you know, black women were not being represented. That to me feels like I could understand. I can understand the hurt behind that? It's like we've been wearing cornrows forever. You don't represent us. But then a white woman wears cornrows, and now she's, I don't know if she was on some cover or whatever it was, right, gets a claim and notoriety or at least attention because of it. That I could understand more. But the fact that she had cornrows or the kind of guarding of some side of kind of cultural expression is harder for me to understand. And I see but and I see both. Actually, I identify with the I identify with the latter more than the former. You do. You have to wonder because you have to wonder, why are you trying to adopt something from a people who've been so globally persecuted? What is it like? I always hearken back. What is the motivation? So we have if we're all this, this, that, and they all know the n word and whatnot, whatnot. So why are you so eager to adopt that? Are you is this some sort of inside joke against Africanness that you're just publicly that publicly, you know, stating right? Or is there some sort of true appreciation? You have to understand, milk. Folks on the street don't know that. They don't know you. So you think there's an instinct. Responsibility. So you think there's an instinct. So there could be different motivations. There could be the motivation to kind of ridicule in some way. There could be the motivation to, I don't know, steal, feel like you're stealing. There could be the motivation of just, interest, curiosity, and even appreciation. Right? And what you're essentially saying is Oh, they don't know all the way. You're saying there's because of the history, there's skepticism of the motivation. So that when you see it for some people in the black community, there's an instinct to go to, are they making fun of me because of this? Is this some way? Yeah. And I'm one of those people with that instinct. I see. I see. So there is okay. You wanted the show, Todd. I you asked me to be myself, I'm gonna be myself. I really want this to get out there because I think a lot of people think like you. I mean, and it's not it's not malevolent, but you're like, if I wanted cornrows or whatever, why couldn't I? Why would that be offensive? And I'm only here having the conversation because, like I said, it's a legitimate question. And for me and my perspective, I wanna clear it up on as to why some would be offended. Now you may have your little black friend in whatever city you live in that says, okay. You know, you know, you know, Karen, go for your cornrows. That's that person in their opinion, and they support you. And I applaud that. But you need to know that when you step out of your house into the world, not everybody is your friend, and not everybody thinks just gonna give you that support. Yeah. Yeah. And you felt I mean, I guess, what was your reaction back in the day? I mean, you said looking back in my eyes. Let's say you last you said it was protection. Did you actually feel protective of me, or did you feel upset that I even brought it up? Like, how did you feel when I brought up the idea of cornrows back in the day? Well, protect well, protection. And then also I so okay. A few things that a few things. I know that you are your own person, so you may, or you may not listen to me. And number 2, protection because you were inviting a reaction that I don't think you were fully aware of. And I think you could have been communicating a message to people that may not have been your intent. And that was that was the motivation behind my counsel because I was like, even for healing race, and that's why I was saying, not necessarily watch what you say, but there's a certain sort of respect that you need to bring to these very heartbreaking topics that we're about to talk about. Mhmm. I mean, I guess at the end of the day, so let's say, okay, there's this issue of identity. There's this issue of also wondering about the motivations of whether it's appreciation or making fun and ridiculing. At the end of the day, let's say you as an individual saw someone in your network, a white person with cornrows, and you had some sort of reaction to it. If at the end of the day through conversation No white person in my network would dare come around me looking like that. No, but listen, so would if the issue is one of skepticism of motivation, you may still counsel them. Hey. Listen. Out there in the world, you're gonna get blowback from some people. Right? You may still counsel them in that way. But let's say someone knows what their motivation is, and they know their motivation is appreciation. They saw some sort of form of expression with air, and they're like, I really like that, and I wanna try it. Right? And you took them at their word. You knew you knew this person, or you talked it through, and you understood they really are coming from that place. How would you then feel about it if you knew and felt confident of their motivation? How would you then feel about it? What's that? The same. You'd still feel the same? Why would you still feel the same? I appreciate your motivation, but your motivation is severely lacking the weight of history. Because what about what I'm saying. I mean, you're lacking especially in the case of cornrows, you're I mean, it's almost as though to me, it almost feels like you're mocking the like I said, the way the ways in which Africanness and even identifying with African identity have been put down. Like, I admire that this you're not coming from a level of motivation. But I mean Why would it feel mocking to you? I'm grateful for you. Because I struggle sometimes, I struggle in the United States. I really, really do because there's a certain thing called good taste. And just in good taste, why would you do some shit like that? So I understand that you have you have a good motivation, but just in good taste, given the history, maybe you don't. Maybe you put your personal needs aside and air on the side of being sensitive to a people who may or may not be offended. Thank you for watching Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingraceshow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. I don't think you're saying, Todd, you can't wear cornrows because you are biased against me. I don't take you as being biased against me as a white person. I take you as saying this is my identity, and that being your motivation. And I just I've never grown up around any kind of white people that have any forms of expression that they define that define their whiteness in that same way, putting aside a bias itself. Right? Like, a ballerina couldn't, like, couldn't be a ballerina and look, like, be black. Right? Which I know was part of Tons of people did that. I know tons of people did that. That's what I'm saying. There's bias and then there's, like, the like, holding on to identity. And I just haven't been around that from the white perspective. I'd say you have. I think you have and maybe it just was not called out in the ways in which I'm calling out, and I say that because the Super Bowl is next weekend. And for some black history, this is the first time that 2 black quarterbacks have ever started the Super Bowl. And I remember, a comedian once saying when back when Obama was president, it was black it's a black comedian, but I forget his last name. And he was saying, I remember when people questioned whether a black man could even lead a football team, let alone be the head of this nation. You know what I mean? And I think I think I think white men really do define leader as whiteness as, you know, like, that's something that white men when you think leadership, you think white. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.