Can Black & White Americans Talk Openly About Race Without Blowback and Blowups?

What happens when 4 Americans, 2 black and 2 white, meet each other and have their first conversation about race together? For our next season of healing race, we will be bringing guests from across America together onto our show to ask the questions they most wanna discuss or what they think we should be talking about when it comes to race. In our first episode of season 2, we start this new healing race journey with Marin, Susan, Landon, and Marcus, who grew up in Georgia, Texas, and Utah and bring a range of backgrounds and beliefs to the conversation. Their conversations were meaningful, impactful, and show what can happen when people bring curiosity, openness, and grace to a topic as charged as races in our country. Todd and I had the privilege to talk with each guest before they met. So before we get to their conversations, let's meet them first. We start this video with me introducing the Healing Race Show to the guest, and we learn a bit about their motivations and background. If you wanna get right to their conversation with each other, you can skip this video and go right to the next season 2 episode. If you'd like to meet them first, stay with us here and enjoy. Like I said, Todd and I met in 1996. And in 20 5 years of friendships, this is two and a half decades, we had never talked about race. And Wow. See, you just have the expression. And like I said, I didn't think anything was wrong with that. But my fear was okay. Am I trying to help this white boy feel good about himself and, you know, click the diversity box and all this. But I've realized, number 1, had Todd had inclinations of that, it would have manifested itself in 25 years. And second, he was coming from a place of genuine curiosity, wanting to understand and wanting a better world. And no matter what I say when I'm drunk, I'm about those things too. Now maybe not so much when I've had a lot of gin, like last night. But anyway, suffice it to say, we agreed to do this and to make it public, which gave me pause, and now my name gonna be out there on the Internet. However, like I said in the first episode, when a person comes to you heart in hand with a genuine curiosity, you rise, and you speak your truth. And so we realized at the end of all of those hours of taping that we're only 2 people. Right? Like, I can't talk to all black people, and he can't speak for all the white people. So we need to get a diversity of guests to get their perspective, their experience, and then model and continue to model what a healthy conversation about race between black and white people looks like, what it can be, and how it can help the world. We were really wondering just what you hope for a conversation like this. What do you hope for yourself? What do you hope for people who will hear and see this kind of conversation as viewers? What's your what's your motivation? What's what would make this worthwhile? What will make this worthwhile for you? I think actually being able to process all of the thoughts and feelings and put them into words and actually express myself. I've worked in law enforcement for 10 years. I've never really sat down to just dive into this conversation with anyone. Normally, it's a short conversation. It may be 10 minutes. It may be about one isolated incident, but it's always more so a justification or a reaction to something that's happened that is blown up in the media. It's never been just sitting down to actually dive into it and have a genuine conversation with someone who was really interested. So it's a lot of bottled-up emotions. Yeah. Just unpack it and yeah. Hopefully, it comes off as genuine and heartfelt. Like, why? What's your why in what's the what's the aim here for you? Yeah. Well, I mean, I have experience in my life across many different dimensions of society, and so do you guys. You know, what kind of things have I experienced? I grew up across the rural and urban divide. You know? My grandparents were farmers. I spend a lot of time on a farm. I've grown up across, 2 cultural divides. My wife is a Honduran, yeah, immigrant. You know, I grew up across a religious, secular divide. I grew up as a member of the Mormon church most of my life and then later deconverted. So, you know, there I have those experiences across my life, but there are some, spots where I don't have experience. You know? And one of those is, I don't have much experience across black America versus white America. That experience, I really didn't have, I grew up in Utah, not a lot of African Americans, knew just a few who were friends, but, you know, I don't I don't really, have a very good perspective of what, black Americans experience and how they interpret it, on a daily basis. I really don't know that much. You know? I know my life stories and, I have 4 kids. You know? I know, what I think about life, but I really have a common humanity view of life. You know? I really think that there's so much more, to humanity, to each of us, that we have in common. But, you know, I would love to learn more about, the experiences of the other people and also, you know, should be able to share, that expertise where I have it across my life. Right? What's the motivation for you? What's the end state that would be your ideal end state by engaging? I would say to affirm my experience through expressing it. Like, I would say and unless usually Andre and I are in some extensive conversation about something, I don't really talk about a lot of things that I share. I just definitely internalize it, have my own reasons for that. And but I am I'm definitely learning a lot, about affirmation through just speaking, like, about what your experience is, like, just saying it out loud, hearing yourself say it. Even if other people disagree, question anything of that sort, there's just something very self-affirming about it. So that's something that is important to me. And then, you know, I just really have genuine curiosity. You know? And, you know, sometimes it can just be we can be so in our own perspectives that I'm just like, what is it like to walk through this same experience or whatever and see or hear something that to me is really obvious. Mhmm. But to be of a different race or gender. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. Just and I ask, you know, Andre those sorts of questions all the time. So I am I am really curious to hear Yeah. You know, other people's perspectives. Because one of the things that I think I've learned a lot is, you know, we are all walking around making assumptions about one another a lot. And so I mean, I've shared with Andre even in my own, like, personal relationships, the times that I have even, like, stopped an argument that was gonna start. Like, because it was, I was playing it out in my head. Yeah. But I was I was like, you know what? Let's ask her a question. You know? Yeah. Like, what did you mean when you said that? Or why did you whatever. And then the person's answer, like, completely was not what I was expecting, and it just confused everything. And I was like, oh, they really weren't aware of x y z. Right? Totally. What I hope to get out of this, I wanna feel less nervous about this kind of thing. Like, this these nerves that I bring into this, I just I would like that to calm down a little bit and make the like, when you're talking, Andre, about conversations about race being a dance, and it can be a complicated and fraught dance. And I just want it to be just a more not so complicated and not so difficult. And I'd like to be in crowd crowds of mixed races and not feel like I have to be sort of on guard about what I say, or I do, lest I say or do the wrong thing. I'd like to just be more relaxed. Really, people just wanna be heard, and this is gonna be I mean, it's such a fraught topic too. So I come into this with you'll probably get into this more, but nervous. I mean, if you know, it's nervous coming into a conversation like this. So I'm a little bit, you know, excited, but also a little bit like, oh, no. You know? How is it gonna go? So yeah. I understand. Well, that that is in our list of things. So why don't we just jump into that? Sure. And, what makes you nervous? What are you what are the concerns behind it? What's, the afraid of saying something that you might be judged in the wrong way or taken out of context or not, someone thinking I'm saying something that where they don't know where I'm coming from with my experience and what I bring to that experience. What do you think needs to be discussed, understood, or acknowledged in in the relationships between black and white Americans for us to Yeah. To have that healthy conversation? Healthy and meaningful. Right? The one that doesn't skirt around issues, but really, what are the issues that we're not talking about that we need to be talking about or that you haven't been able to talk about that you would like to talk about? Yeah. And I would love to know what the African American community what they think is the fair way to put the past of, behind, you know, and focus exclusively on a not exclusively. That's not gonna happen. That's not necessary, but to focus more on the future of us. I would like to know what they feel about that because, you know, when I grew up, it was a lot of Martin Luther King Junior type, understanding where it was you know, it's the content of our character is the critical thing and, you know, but, you know, some people embrace that and some people didn't, and for various reasons. So I would like to talk about that. You know? I hope in the future of the country that we come together, with a little more cohesion as Americans and a little bit less cohesion for our individual identity groups. Mhmm. So I would like to know what do these people think is the way to accomplish that. You know? That's number 1. And, you know yeah. And then what are what are the ways that we can help each individual have the dignity that they seek in our society? And also the opportunities. You know? What would you wanna talk about? What would you wanna ask? I think oftentimes it's misconstrued or misunderstanding that to be black in law enforcement, it's almost like your black card is revoked. I'm not oblivious to issues that affect black and brown or minorities in this country. I think oftentimes people will take a headline or one isolated incident, and it's a blanket on the entire profession. I would challenge the guest, and I would it's almost as if I would say if you were walking down the street and you were mugged by a black person and you genuinely now have a fear of black people, that's a blanket. I think we tend to, in society, take instances and just cast it over too broadly. So what I'm trying to say is it's almost like we as black people, we know what it's like to be discriminated against. Racism is real. That's just a fact, but it's almost as if to argue or combat racism or discrimination, we in turn around and do it to others. Marcus, what does it feel like when people are saying those things to you? When they're when they're using you as a whipping boy for their anger about something that has nothing to do with you? It is mentally taxing. Being a police officer is a job in which you don't always get appreciation. It's a selfless job that sometimes you just have to be comfortable with knowing that you're not liked, knowing that you're not gonna be thanked, constantly going out and serving a community that could very well most chances rather than not. They don't like you. They're only using you in that moment because they need you in the moment that they finish using you. They're not gonna like you again. You're constantly dealing with the world's problems despite the problems that you may have yourself. For instance, you know, last year was a horrible year for me. My sister Yeah. Became terminally ill with cancer and was dead in a matter of 3 months. Yeah. I'm so sorry. And so no one ever thinks of that in the midst of you going through your own storm. Mhmm. You still have to show up every day. Mhmm. You have to put that on the back burner, and you have to go serve people in the worst times of their lives, whether it's a disturbance where a wife or husband has beat up their significant other, whether it's a drowning a child drowning in food, whether it's an accident that turns into a fatality, whatever the case may be, the weight of the world is on your shoulders in the midst of dealing with your own storm. And so I guess in a sense, my questions would be, again, if something happens 20 hours away, what does that have anything to do with me? Why is it that the black community will outcast you for being a police officer? Why is it that you don't want to see someone in uniform that looks like you? And I say that because I've lost friends or acquaintances. I guess my real friends are my friends. But why is it that I lost friendships simply because of the job that I chose to do? Wait a minute. People stop being friends with you because you're a cop? Oh, absolutely. Rude. Rude. Rude. Rude. Absolutely. Oh my god. I had people ask me, why do you wanna be a cop? Why are you doing that? You should find something else to do. Yes. Absolutely. So it's just it's insane to me. It's insane. It's a lot. To find and to see that white people embrace you because you said white people treat you respectfully. More so than black people. Yes. Yes. And that's a tough pill to swallow. Like, if you could pick the top three topics that you think if people black and white could come together and have that conversation in a constructive, open, honest, respectful, curious, loving way, what would those top or what are you curious about? You know, what are things you maybe haven't asked or haven't broached with someone who comes from the black experience or, you know, a unique black experience, right, for each person, that you maybe wish you could hear more about, but maybe haven't had the opportunity to do so? Gosh. That's a tough one. I you know, the thing that just comes to the top of my mind is why you know, I always hear people saying we need to talk about this, you know, and from both sides saying we need to talk about this more and get it out in the open and just be more honest with each other and in these discussions the way y'all are doing here. But then at the same time, if you do speak up sometimes, then you get, you know, you might get jumped on or I holler at. Yes. And so that's not so the way y'all are doing y'all the way you're approaching it here seems like ideal, but why my question in a larger way is why can't more people approach this conversation the way you're doing it here? And instead of every you know; you open yourself up and then you get attacked. Then something that I've wondered Mhmm. About, the protesting that we see around race, you know, like following George Floyd and what's happened during the pandemic. And I would like to share a quick story to give it a little context, if you don't mind. So one of the backs in the eighties, so I graduated from college at Georgia Tech, and I was living in Atlanta. And there was a there was a county just north of there, Forsyth County, in Cumming, Georgia, which is represented by Marjorie Taylor Greene right now. But, anyway, to give some context, but at that time, there were no blacks at all that lived in that county, because they had been chased out decades before by the KKK, and it was this kind of a stronghold of the KKK. I don't know. I think it's much, much better now. I hope I hope it is. But anyway, there was a brotherhood march that was being planned by through there by the, some of the civil rights leaders around Atlanta, and they planned this march, and it went very badly. They had rocks thrown at them and insults hurled at them, and they had to abandon it and get out. So then they planned another march and put the word out, broadcast far and wide. And me and my best friend in Atlanta and it turns out my brother went to this as well, and I didn't even know he was there. But they called out and, like, tens of thousands of people showed up. And they bused us in on school buses into the county to do to repeat the march. And I have such vivid memories of this. It was such a powerful day. I'll never forget. But on the buses, they were just hired these school buses. Each bus was a leader who talked to us on the way up there. It was about a 45-minute drive who talked to us about this is what's gonna happen. You're gonna be silent, and I mean dead silent. You're not gonna speak. You're not gonna sing. You're not gonna engage with people on the sides. You're gonna look straightforward, and you're gonna walk. And you're gonna we're gonna get in lines of 5. We're gonna lock arms in rows of 5, and you just look straightforward and walk. That's all we're gonna do. No signs, no t shirts, you know, no nothing. Just walk. And that's what everybody did. Everybody was just it was on it was just almost in silence once we all got there and just lining up and everybody cooperating and getting in their lines and locking arms with, you know, who knows who on your left and your right, just all of us, and, and walking. And what we saw on the sidelines was pretty frightening, and what we heard and the signs and the yelling, and it was awful. It wasn't violent at all, but it was it moved me deeply. And just the silence and the dignity of the way it was done was just it was profound. It's one of the most profound things that has ever I'm welling up just talking about it. It was very profound. Please, go ahead. And, and then I see the way people are protesting, like, during the pandemic and with all the violence. And we were actually living in a rental house at the time, when things got really bad with the George Floyd protests. And there was violence just down the road from us and burning and, it was we were frightened. We were seriously frightened. And I don't know how did it how did it come to that? Is that and you know I don't know. I just couldn't I can't square those things in my head. The experience that I had with most this most powerful way of protesting and then this other way that seemed full of rage and anger and destruction and scared me to my core. Just 2 vastly different things, and I can't square those things in my head. And I would like some help understanding, if I, if possible, the dichotomy and those experiences. As I paid attention to general, like, attitudes over time and, you know, the post you know, after the murder of George Floyd and, you know, pendulum swings of conversations around diversity, equity, and inclusion. And I even try to say this on my job. I said, are people aware that, you know, when they throw out, they're like, oh my gosh. I feel so picked on because, you know, I'm a white guy or because I'm straight or because I'm whatever. Do they understand that they're making the same argument that they complained about when a black person, a gay person, or whatever said it? Like, are they aware of that? And I don't say that to, you know, make people defensive about quote unquote hypocrisy. I'm I try to say that in terms of there's a basic humanity here. Like, we are all there where we're all kind of out of instinct reacting to being picked on, discriminated against, or feeling left out because of an identity that we have no control over. Again, from a humanity standpoint, we can sit here all night and talk about various groups that have been enslaved, persecuted, like, everything of that sort. But always it makes me uncomfortable when conversations like that happen. It's only when it talks about black people that people start making excuses, where it's a, a, but, you know, you sold yourselves into slavery, but, you know, blah blah blah. But no one would ever, ever, ever, you know, call out there's always traitors in wars, you know, in situations like that. There's always peep you know, like, people are very, very complex. Right? Our history in the world is very, very, very complex. But I just hate that we can talk about, you know, what's happened in terms of the internment of Asians in the US, and no one goes, what? Were some Asians are turning others in. Right? Like, it's like reparations. Right. The Asian community saying anything like that. But there is just something about, like, people like, oh my gosh. What happened with, you know, with the Jewish community and the Irish community and the Asian community? That's so horrible. Then we say, look what happened to the black community. Well and then people start explaining it away. And that makes me feel like there's a certain there's some sort of animosity towards black people that, like, I missed the memo on. It's like all the other groups in the world that got together and said, just so you know, that's the one group. You slay me when you say that. It's my why would we not invited to the conference? No. I'm like, we'll complete our take. This one for this election happened. And So you Yeah. Go ahead. No. I see. So that's just something that I do tend to ask other groups, like, not just, oh, did you talk about diversity? Did you talk about race in your household? I literally now ask people, what did you learn about black people? Thank you. Thank you. Like, what did you learn about black people growing up in your school, in your community, in your household, in whatever? And if the answer is I mean, it wasn't talked about. It was what I saw on TV. You know? Okay. But that's why I specifically asked that question. So many times, there's this focus on my answers my ancestors didn't own slaves or anything of that sort. However, your ancestors were around when slaves were owned. Mhmm. And so unless they were trying to free them or march in the streets with them have you had conversations about, yeah, we passively sat around and knew black people had to sit on the back of the bus. Mhmm. We knew black kids weren't allowed at our school. Not so much. We knew black people weren't allowed in our neighborhood or in our country club. We knew, like there are oftentimes since we just focus on, I didn't do it. But even Doctor King talks a lot about, like, hey. You know, if you were sitting around when injustice is being done, you're also part of the problem. And is that part of the narrative? So it sounds like just kinda formulate that into kind of a topic question. It sounds like you wonder something pretty similar to what Andre wondered, multiple times in our conversation, which is which is, I guess, just the nature of the white responsibility in the status in the current status of I directly say it. You're responsible. You know, white, black relationships or the black or the black experience in in in in America, you know, now, it sounds like you have a similar kind of curiosity about what people what white people think about that, or at least wanna have a conversation about that. Is that am I am I right in that? Yeah. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healing race show dot com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topicshealingraceshow.com. -As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. In my general environment and growing, it just there was open racism, and in what way? How did that manifest itself? Well, the Klan was active there when I was growing up. I mean, just really, like and people would say things, make jokes about black people that were just, you know, super offensive and it was common, you know. I mean, it was just a very white area where I grew up and it wasn't there was no sensitivity to that whatsoever. This, you know, I grew up near Stone Mountain where there's a big carving of the confederate heroes on the side of the mountain, and we celebrated that and sang songs around it and sang Dixie and all this stuff. So, you know, and I fully participated not knowing really the full meaning of what I was doing. It was a source of southern pride. It wasn't thought of as for me, wasn't thought of as, you know, racist or offensive. And I've learned a lot since then, of course, but, but also in the media, you know, just having images in the media that weren't that weren't particularly flattering until, of course, like, things like the Cosby show came along, and it was kind of eye opening. Personally, I feel that we have more similarities than we do have differences. I feel as Susan is saying back in the day, they had a black maid that she didn't interact with. Like, you don't have to feel guilty about that because I feel like in a sense, we're all ignorant, and that's not to say that we're dumb or less than, but again, you don't know what you don't know. And whatever your norm is, whatever you're brought up around and whatever your surrounding is, your community, that's what you know. So, like, don't feel bad about it. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.