Can Black Americans Be Authentic And Still Succeed?

We used to have the same among black people. We would say so and so was proper. Like, are they proper? What proper meant is you were the antithesis of what even black people may have been being themselves, thought about themselves, all those negative tropes. So you bring your best language. You present your you know, and when you're at your home, your best China, you make sure that you can be seen as an exemplar of a human being. Yeah. Do that again. Not a not an exemplar in your profession, not an exemplar in your school, but an exemplar just as a human being. I see. That's what we carry around. I keep coming back to this idea of how white or how black our networks or our social networks are. Right? And I that being a case for a good number of people in our country, how much that perhaps plays a role in preventing us from getting beyond some of these challenges in racial relationships. You shared the way in which you feel people generally, people white people and black people view you as a black person when it comes to intelligence or professional success or capability to be successful professionally. And I hear kind of loud and clear coming from you this strong motivation to aspire to that greatness and that success right and to in some ways represent black people in a way that would make you and members of the black community proud, right? And I see you as a successful person. Like I don't see you as needing to prove anything else or to aspire to anything greater unless you in your own heart desire that for yourself in your life. And I think there are at least a good there would be a good portion of my network of people who are white who would actually see you the same. Now I'm not suggesting, Andre, that they don't carry bias in some way, that there's not unconscious associations. At the same time, I think they would still see you as successful and capable. And to the extent that our networks are not mixed in the way that we might ideally want, you know, like, for our society, for our country, we don't get to see that. Like, you don't get to see the 20, 50, 100 white people in my network who if they met you and they knew about what you've done all in your life, just who you are as a person and as a professional, they would evaluate you in a very positive light. They would but you don't get to see that. Right? And so I wonder the way in which we, you and I and others, you know, stick to our own too much or not sometimes consciously, but sometimes, you know, just this is just the networks we're given, how much that plays a role in our beliefs about how others judge us. And I, again, I'm not saying that that that it doesn't actually happen. I just think the expectation that it might happen is probably greater than the extent to which the frequency with which it would actually happen. In in, again, in terms of this is just my network, and I hear you loud and clear when you share in past episodes how, Todd, you live differently. You go up in Southern California, and you have a particular kind of network that, you know, you're you very recently came over, has a strong Jewish I understand I understand that I have that I'm different in certain ways when in compared to the broader white population, but I have networks beyond that. Like, I know people who are not white people who are not don't come from the same kind of background that I did and just know that they would approach you in the same way that I'm describing. And I guess that's why I kind of come back to some of these questions of what drives you to feel like you have to present in a certain way. Like, I used to, I don't know if you, I don't know if I ever expressed this to you, you know, I used to pick up your sayings and your tonalities, and it would just come out of me, like, when I was back home. You know? Or I would say something like, oh, I know what Andre would say about that. He's all that and a bag of chips. Right? And we would no. No. This can come off we would laugh about it, but not laughing at me. You were laughing at me. It was that's funny. Mhmm. But you were laughing at me. So here so you got to understand the comparison of our experiences. You express yourself at university and get rebuffed and feel like you need to change. I am expressing who you are back home, and people are not just accepting, but feeling joy around it. Right? That they're and you got to meet my family. They Yes. You feel this way, embraced you. Right? Yes. They did. And probably hopefully, you felt it was somewhat natural. Yes. It was. Throwing yourself in a in a new context is always feeling, you know, unfamiliar and maybe uncomfortable. But, so, again, I'm trying to understand this different experience because I have a different kind of network, and I've had a different kind of experience in in the way that they people would appreciate you in in being authentically Andre, not in being prepared and contrived Andre to try to fit in socially. And I understand that we're not a digital network. Do you understand why it's a little bit like I'm why I would have this motivation of really trying to understand. And I'm also trying to understand the racial component of it, Andre, because I have adapted. I don't wanna make myself out to be someone who has not tried to adapt. When I had my first job, right, I started my own company out of college, had that for about a year, and then I got signed on by a company to do seminars and trainings. Right? And, well, first for sales, and customer service. But when I started going out and doing trainings, I didn't wear, you know, T shirts and shorts, certainly. You know, I was up in front of a group. I was super young. I was 21 years old. I was talking to a lot of older folks. Like, I put the suit shirt on. I put the suit pants on. I put the nice shoes on. I didn't wear the tie because I just couldn't bring myself to do it. But, you know, I cater to that audience. Now slowly but surely that changed over time where I was like, okay, I can wear a nice shirt but not a collar? Like, I could downgrade it a little bit, right, in a way that was comfortable for me. But I did adjust, and I think I think it's a generally universal experience other than people who grew up in the kinds of neighborhoods you're talking about where they're really, like, prepared in this way, to make an adjustment to the professional world. My question, and so given that we all in some way need to adjust to the professional world, right, we all in some way try to adapt ourselves to make sure we're accepted by our clients, our coworkers, and the like. What is it to you that you feel you needed to adjust that was racially defined in some way, that was racially relevant. Right? Because I had to adjust, but I'm assuming you think, maybe I shouldn't assume this, that there are components of who you think you are as a or how you express yourself as a black person that wasn't accepted. And I'm trying to understand That's part of the coming from one of many. Right? So what I had to shift were under what I had to learn was the rules of engagements. The rules of engagement when I was one of few around white people. In in certain not all white people, but in certain settings in certain settings of white people. Right? Okay. And I think, yes. And so it's a story in multiple dimensions. 1 of trans transitioning cast, going transitioning cast, and then also Which you're defining as, like, an economic status. Situation. Right? So when you go when you when you're around one group of people with rules engaged and how they express themselves, and then now you're in a what they in a higher cast, I guess you say, then that changes. But when you're still, you know, representing or showing up, manifesting, using the rules of the lower cast, then there's a tension there. There's a tension in, you know, externally with the people with whom you're communicating. And then once you become aware that they have attention, then there's attention in you. And you have to figure out number 1, how to repair the external situation so that you don't get booted out of the castor. The cast doesn't close ranks against you. And then number 2, you have to learn how to reconcile yourself. So, you know, you learn when and how to present and so forth. And so that that that's when you ask the question, what do you need to change about yourself racially? And it's not and it's not a physical thing, but there is a way of being, you know, even just when you're casual friends with people, and let's say, you know, casual friends with working class black people, and then you're now among upper class or affluent white people, then you sort of have to you have to become very malleable and read your audience and know, you know, how far to go, how far not to go when you're telling a story or Mhmm. Or whatever. What to reveal, what not to reveal. Like, it's all it's very nuanced, and it's very I mean, it's not even a dance. It's a ballet. Literally, it's a ballet. So there's certain ways of expressing yourself that you feel again, I'm trying to tease apart the economic and the and the racial. So when I think about JD Vance's book and he talks about all the ways that he had to learn, like, how you do silverware at a really nice dinner. You should see my table right now. Yeah. That was the reason I was late to our conversation. You were setting it up? Yes. So I was staging the table, and I staged it exactly what in this example I've been talking about. And you have to understand, I was not taught that, but I had to learn that so that when I host people, I know how to host them to their expectation. Uh-huh. Yeah. So I never I still don't know how to do that. I never learned that. Anyways, my point and you're white. That's why this is so foreign to me. And you're white. Why it's so foreign to me. But let's just take what you are saying in terms of adapting is very similar to what I heard, what I read in JD Vance's book. And so what you're talking about is this kind of increase of economic mobility or economic status. Right? And so I'm trying to pull that apart from what you feel is racial. And so you feel it sounds like there are some ways of expressing yourself that you would express that are natural to express within your in your black community or in the black community at large. That if you express that way that you if you express in that way, you would be rebuffed? Like, you Like, let I because I just thought of a funny story that involves the 2 of us. Okay. Oh, and that's good because I love my favorite topic of conversation is food, by the way. Yeah. And so let's go on the lines of food. I remember when I went home, I remember when I went home with you once during, you know, university. Yeah. And we were hanging out at one of your friend's houses, and I think we had gotten some, like, McDonald's. Where I come from, you eat the burger out of the box, and I'll never forget. I won't mention his name. I remember his name, but I won't mention it. When your friend was like, oh, don't you wanna play? And I said, no. I'll just eat. I said, no. You wanna play. And I was and I remember that. And I remember like, oh, you eat things off of a plate. You don't just eat out of the box. Okay. And fast forward to all these years later, my brother was at my house. Oh, my god. And we were having a meal. It was just me and my 3 brothers. No mother, no anything like that. And keep in mind, we never hosted fancy meals. We never we never even laid silverware on the table. You open the door, got the silverware when you were ready to sit down and eat. Yeah. And my brother was eating without a knife, and I just yelled his name. I said, you know, whatever. And he just whipped his head around. And I said, use a knife. And he said, and he said, you just you just yelled at me. Like, I thought I was in trouble. I said, and he whipped his head. I said, use a knife. And that that that really comes from my interaction with being in white upper-class environments and not How do you pull apart the racial component in the economic? Can't pull that. But for me, for white people, maybe you can. For me, you can't pull it apart because yeah. I don't think you can because when you when you express, like, I never ate, you know, at least not in any kind of, you know, regular way, burgers on a plate. Like, you ate them in the pack, in the in the little wrapper that came with it. Right? Like, that's how you ate it. Right? I mean, so I relate, and that's why I'm for really trying to understand. I'm not saying there's not a racial component to it. I'm really trying to understand what is the black way of being and what's Well, well, no. What I'll tell you to help you understand is not necessarily a black way and a white way, but there have been so many sorts of tropes and memes about black people with this and black people with that. That's why I'm hyper conscious of it. Like, for example, black people eating fried chicken. Because I asked my friends and said, you know, we're gonna premiere the show on Juneteenth. Do you think that's disrespectful? And one friend said, as long as you're not eating fried chicken and watermelon, I think you're good. Because what's the one you know, they love fried chicken. First of all, I've been all around the world. Every culture has some form of fried chicken. Like some form of it. Right? I remember I'll never forget. I was in Bangkok, Thailand coming out of a nightclub, and a Thai woman was had an open drum under a large pot on a propane burner frying chicken outside the nightclub. And I was like, I'll be nerd. And then here we are, black people are supposed to be these big lip watermelon and chicken eating people. And I'm like, you this is just this is a smear campaign. So the consciousness around ways of being as it relates to race are not it relates to a consciousness of not trying not reflecting the tropes that are out there so that you don't Yes. Yes. Yes. Because what I'm trying to understand is, like, if you went across the country, white, black, or otherwise, you would get a whole range of different cultural ways of being. And I'm not and I understand that professionally, there are certain norms that exist. Norms that, like I said, I didn't grow up with, you know, may or maybe to a small extent. My parents tried to, you know, get me to dress up nice and at certain points in time, but it was very, very, very little. I remember one time we went to a cotillion class, like, a dance of some kind, and it just like, well, I never went back. I can't I mean, like, there's no way I you know? Are you kidding, Tim? This is not me. I mean, I actually wound up learning social dance just because it was fun, but, but this kind of proper way of being I mean, that was just, like, so far from the way I grew up to try to inculcate anything like that into me was just not happening. Yeah. So I'm trying to I understand that these norms, but I also think there are just lots of variation in cultural communities. Mhmm. And we're trying to adapt in different ways. And that's why I'm really trying to understand. Is there a black white divide here or is there just There is one. No. There is one. So what is You're right. You are Other than the tropes the tropes or what? All the other races of people with variation of cultural being and manifestation are not being showcased and denigrated as publicly as we are. So I think I'm understanding now. There are certain cultural expressions that have derogatory associations, and then there's the general derogatory associations of how people view, have viewed, or at least white racist people have viewed white people, lazy or You mean white racist people have viewed black people? Sorry. White racist people have viewed black people. I told my friends, criminals, stupid, and lazy. I told my friends. Yeah. And so what you're saying is in any way if in any way a cultural expression either, played into something that was made fun of culturally or played into those general stereotypes you and other members of the black community have felt and still feel a motivation, a pressure to conform in a way where you won't be seen in that way? As that. They yes. That is what I'm saying. I see. What I what I colloquially call, because I love the way I express myself, bringing the tilly tally. The tilly tally. The tilly tally. What's that? Tilly tally. And what the tilly tally is your because we used to have a saying among black people. We would say so and so was proper. Like, oh, they are proper. What proper meant is you showed up in such a way to be mannerable. Like, you were the antithesis of what even black people made themselves, thought about themselves. All those negative tropes and negative means. So you bring your best language. You present your, you know, and when you're at your home, your best China, you make sure that you can be seen as an exemplar of a human being. Yeah. Do that again. Not a not an exemplar in your profession, not an exemplar in your school, but an exemplar just as a human being. I see. That's what we carry around. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I understand. I understand. So I'm like, we go to work on this shit. You see the race; we go to work because this is deep. This is really deep. I mean, until I've been crying for half of this. Yeah. I mean to bring this up. Yeah. I mean, even the term that you're using is best. Right? The best way of speaking or the best, and the question then becomes what's the what's the best way? I mean, I way a lot of people do it. Because I often get criticized for whether I'm being proper. I don't know if I get criticized for the way I speak, but, but I can understand. And, again, it's really hard for me to really to fully understand this because I just know how I think people in certain people, at least in my network, have or would accept you, however you express yourself. And so I'm trying to understand what are the contexts where this really needs to happen. Right? And what are the contexts where it doesn't need to happen? And my sense from you in our other conversations is it's too much energy to even figure out where you can be yourself, you know, whatever that means culturally and personally, and where you need to be proper in these ways. And so might as well be on the safe side and show up in those ways as a first show up in that proper way, that follows the norms in case it might be a situation where you need to do so. Is that am I am I right in that? Is that Yes. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingraceshow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. Here's the question, I guess, that I would have around identity because I talked in the last episode of having a very weak connection if almost no connection to whiteness as an identity of myself. Right? Mhmm. And I hear you that people perceive me that way, and then that comes with certain things. In your ideal world, if you can wave a magic wand about the way things are, would you identify with your color? Like, would that even be an identity? To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling Healing Race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.