Does Focusing on Race Increase Racial Conflict?

We have a history of when there's been confrontation with whites, life or death. Right? So for us, it we we're constantly looking for a threat. Like I said, a mongoose and a cobra. We're constantly looking for a threat. I think that a response from some portion of the white population would be, we just don't all wanna be seen as a cobra. We acknowledge that there are some different some threats, some we just don't wanna be lumped into this. We don't wanna be seen as this intentional predator of black people in this country. The more we focused on who we think whites are and what white people need to do and talking about white people as if they have this identification, the more people start to feel that there is reason to identify as white more strongly. You strongly identify as black. I don't as the way you appear. Right? I don't as the way I appear. I don't strongly identify as white. And so the question is why? Now there's all sorts of reasons why. But you there was an experience that people had based on the color of their skin that gave them and they currently that they currently have based on the color of their skin. They give them reason to bond together. Right? I mean, I mean, it might you tell me. I mean, I'm I should tell You're right. Whether they want to or not because the other group is making is throwing them together. Correct. Correct. So people get lumped together based on the color of their skin. They then have experiences that are painful threatening experiences based on the color of their skin, and they say, or they have really great experiences based on the color of their skin. Or great experiences. True. Great experiences based on the color of their skin. I have a question about that in a moment, but I, of course, I agree with that. And so they bond together. Well, what what's the analog for white people? What's the way in which they were classified and lumped together? And I'm gonna focus on the negative threatening part. Right? Where they were threatened as whites. Right? Not as other things. Not as Americans. Not as some ethnicity, but where they as a group were threatened as whites. I don't know what the analog is. There was no I mean; my historical heritage is different than a number of rights. I you know, my grandparents were the ones who migrated. I have a short history here. Right? Let alone that the fact that they strongly identified as Jews before white or you know? Right? So that was their strongest identification was as Jews. So my when I speak as me as being white, I understand that I'm different in that way. But just me as being white, what would be, even if I was here 200 years ago and being white, what would my kind of threat what was what would be the threat to me as a white person? I would look at it slightly different. I wouldn't form it as an analog, but an opposite side of a coin. So you didn't have the so maybe this collective of white people didn't have some sort of exodus existential threat coming at them as a group. Maybe some perceive that. But more than anything on the outside of the coin as a collective, they had a benefit that even by for whether you strongly identified or not, you were enjoying. And as I hear you talk, you know, about I mean, think about that sort of, like, white people are less likely to be taken in by the police when they're stopped. And even then, if they are taken in, they're charged with lesser crimes. Like, there's also so I guess for the people who may or may not self-identify whether and as black people, we're not looking at the degree to which a particular individual identifies because you’re all reaping the benefit of it. Right? So, you know, it doesn't that that part doesn't matter to us, you know? So that's why we do harp on the collective group, because we're not looking at necessarily your personal emotions, because your personal emotions don’t matter. All that matters is that in a particular situation, someone, whether you want it or not, is extending you a benefit that they are likely to not extend to people of color. I've been in Yes. So you what I'm what I'm hearing from you is that a reason to identify or to prop up your whiteness might be the carrots just as much as the sticks. Right? The things that push you in that way, that that pull you towards a group just as much as they push you towards that group. And I hear you on that. And what I'm suggesting is that my sense, my perception, my observation is that this trend of harping so much on people owning their sense of whiteness. Right? And all the benefits that I'm going to acknowledge come with that more so in some situations than others across the country. But in general, lots of different benefits that you pointed out, you and I have both pointed out over the course of our conversations. It gives people when people feel threatened, and I know you say lean into the discomfort. I've heard it from you before. I'm suggesting for that that for some group of people that gives them another reason to identify in a stronger way with their whiteness and I worry about that. So I worry about the backlash of the focus on white identity to actually strengthen white identity because it makes white identity a thing. I don't share culturally. I don't share I mean, when I think about what is white culture? What is that? Like, can we even define that when we are What I'm saying is what I'm saying is because of the benefit, that strong white identity is already there. Maybe but don't get me wrong. I think the degree is spelled in different white communities and frame groups, etcetera. But what I think what I'm saying is that it's already there. Like, you're that you're that already that that that strong identity is there. It's just being played down or played up at various depending on the context, but it's already there. That we're that we're together because we're white. And what I am suggesting to you is that there are a portion of people for whom that is the case. Strong. And I'm saying it's the case for all white people. Yeah. And what I'm suggesting to you is that I think you would be surprised to the extent to which people do not identify in that way. They don't see so I That's why we're gonna someday have guests on this show so I can ask for myself. And I disagree. Is Todd just an outline? Either Todd is lying. Right? Yeah. It's like my friend said he lying. And My friend always says he lying. I know. I'm not talking about myself. Either Todd is lying about himself, and he really did think about being white and is attached to being white or whatever. Or Todd is actually telling the truth. He really doesn't care about being white, has not thought about it very much. And but he's totally wrong when it comes to other people. Other people who present as white. Well, that's why we need guests because right now, we're 2 very smart men in a vacuum, and we have to take the show to the people. Because I and because I genuinely want to know. And you just exclude other black people because my own just feeling and sense. And like I said, I do have, you know, sort of you say, an adversarial mind is that they do. Like, you know, they do. So, I mean, I hear what you're saying. I respect that as an intellectual point. I just don't think that's lived experience. Yeah. Well, I will here's where I will again, I don't know the percentages, of people. And even if we get guests on, it's gonna depend on what kinds of guests are we getting a real kind of Question. Representative population of is a guest that are representative of all the people across the country. What I will, well, I that I will share in support of your sense of it is that when research has so I will support both sides, in some sense. There has been research on the strength of white identity, and it has been increasing in more recent times, and that worries me. K? And some of the understanding of why that's the case is around idea of threat. Right? Mhmm. Threat based on race, and that's why I worry about some of the conversation because I have seen in some of the research that this is having an effect, and I worry about Some of some white people have been going around talking about a race war. So if you feel that there's gonna be some sort of some sort of existential because what I'm saying is that that's not necessarily coming from black people harping on white identity even within the, you know, the diverse community of white people. I'm using that word deliberately diverse to acknowledge not all. My mind is evolving. I'm a just like I'm a host of this show. I'm also a participant in its dialogue. Yeah. So yeah. So the diverse group. But even if you have a minority saying, you know, there's gonna be a race war, you know, it's gonna be and people can say things so often that it does mean, like, well, you know what? Look, if people start trying to do the fool because of race, they need to know I'm white, so don't shoot up my house. So this is why so I'm gonna I'm gonna agree with you and turn the tables on you, which is why there might be some number of people in the black community, bigger or smaller, who have views of who white people are based on the color of their skin and the view and have assumptions about the way they identify as being white and the way they think about being black, a black a black, you know, the black population. And the more certain conversation happens among the black population about white people, the more that also, right, can change hearts and minds. So I think these are conversations happening on both sides, some of which are productive and some of which can enhance a feeling of threatened fear. That's all that I'm saying, and that's my worry. Yeah. But for us, it's more life or death. Like, so we have a history of when there's been confrontation with whites, life or death. Right? So for us, it we we're constantly looking for a threat. Like I said, a mongoose and a cobra. We're constantly looking for a threat. And maybe that's a poor analogy. And for You're making it real. You're making it physical. Like Yeah. Like because I really want it to be visceral. Right? You know? So we like I said, in as I was watching one of the episodes, I concentrate a lot on self-preservation. And so you're if you're always looking for some sort of existential threat, you don't want a dropping of the guard, if you will. You always want your guard up. Yeah. So keep language hyperbolic, to keep people worried, to keep the guard up. And I will acknowledge to you that both sides could do that. Yeah. And I will acknowledge to you that this is not an equal playing field, that the threats that are experienced on the white side are not equivalent to the threats experienced on the black side where those threats exist. So I can acknowledge that acknowledgment. I put that out there. Here's what I will say. This has been my hesitation. It's like a, you know, broken record. Mhmm. The hesitation is so even using your analogy of the cobra and the Mongoose. Mongoose. Lots of mongoose. I used to live in Hawaii. Lots of mongooses in Hawaii. Do you know they transported them there? They transported they transported mongooses, I feel like, from, like, Australia or somewhere. Some place like Get rid of the I wanna say it's, like, to get rid of, like, the maybe it was a rat problem or yes. I believe so. Some kind of problem. And mongooses just took hold because they don't have any natural predator Predators? In Hawaii. So you got tons of them there. I hope I'm I think it's the mongoose. I hopefully I got the animal right because I used to live there. It'd be bad news if I got that wrong. Anyways, back to the issue at hand, the cobra and the cobra and the mongoose. Now people are gonna say which is which. I didn't go there, but there are some who might ask that question. And we're not gonna state. I think that a response from some portion of the white population would be we just don't all wanna be seen as a cobra. But now you've answered their question. We don't all wanna be seen as a cobra. We acknowledge that there are some different some threats, some we just don't wanna be lumped into this. We don't wanna be seen as this intentional predator of black people in this country. Well, then and my retort to that my retort to that is okay. Cool. So talk to your people. That's to me, that's not a black problem or a black issue. That's a white problem. So if you don't wanna be seen as that, tell these people to tone down their rhetoric, and we will deescalate rhetoric be as the same, like, to use the analogy. So the mongoose is gonna relax when the cobra goes to sleep. So I was I was running a seminar. I was running a seminar one time, around resolving emotions. And I asked the group, I said and so we were working on dealing with anger. I'm not saying that's the only emotion here you should you've expressed as I have, like, a variety of emotions, but I'm just gonna this is this is a real-life circumstance. Yeah. And I said, is there anyone if we're gonna go through resolving anger, is there anyone for whom you would find it problematic to resolve your anger? And one person raised his hand, and he said, yes. I worry about letting it go because my anger serves me. It motivates me. Mhmm. And what I hear you saying, put aside the specific emotion of anger, what I hear you saying is that the feelings exhibited or demonstrated in parts of the black population because it's not everyone. Right? The black population just as the white population is diverse. Right? Yes. If the feelings exhibited and the behaviors that that come out of those feelings are that there would be a hesitation to tone that down to the extent that it would lead to complacency about something that needs to be changed. Yes. Yes. Yes. Thank you for intellectualizing and articulate Okay. The analogy. Yeah. Yeah. Mongoose will relax when the cobra goes to sleep. Yeah. And the cobra will relax when the mongoose goes to eat. Got it. And so now just again to kind of go back to the to the other side of the ledger, which is when you say talk to your people about changing things. Right? I'm just gonna bring it up again. It's like, who is your people? Right? Like, again, I don't identify. Like, I don't I don't have this strong ident I don't go around. I get all of that, but by virtue of your appearance, you are. So to me, what I'm saying is none of I get that, but that don't matter. But the by virtue of your appearance, you are part of the group. Just by virtue of my appearance, I'm a part of the group. I didn't create these rules. Talk to the common fathers. Here's the distinction that I just think is really super important, Andre, in me in my in my feeling about this is that I just think there is a difference between how you feel you belong to groups and how people perceive you as being part of groups. Yes. I can accept when you say you are perceived, Todd, as being part of a group and you benefit from that. And so you end that sentence. Do something about it. Right? Use the complexion that you have to advocate in such a way that change is made. You're a platform. I can own I can own that. When the language changes to insinuate that I actually feel that I actually am belonging to a part of a group, I it's not that I feel that that's problematic, Andre. I'm not like angry about it. I don't I don't feel upset about it. It just doesn't reflect my experience. There are people who claim their white identity, who are proud of their identity as a white person, as being part of a group that they feel they're a part of because of the color of their skin, that clearly exists. But for a large portion of people, there's just not there in terms of thinking of oneself as white or bonding with people, other people who are white. And for those people, for that small amount of white people for that larger amount of white people? There lies the problem. There lies the problem. That's why the problem so without that connection, then without that connection, how long can the premise of their arguments last? And so it's easy to in order to bring you all in the fold, you focus on, well, we got a common enemy in the black people. And then if you play that up, drip over time, like your studies have shown, those who don't have a very strong white identity will begin to evolve into 1. Because they're being told, well, because the person who's doing the telling and who's in their ear sees it as a problem that they don't have the strong white identity. So your number 1, claim the common enemy. Look, the common enemy is coming after us. And if you give enough hyperbolic rhetoric to people, they'll eventually take hold of it. And that's kinda what I mean is when you tell them to calm down, then, then the opposite party will respond in kind. And so what I'm suggesting, I just think there's people who just don't buy. It depends on it depend on it depends on the extent to which someone would buy into that reality. Alright. I accept them. Like, I do agree that repetition does increase some people's accepting something as real. But there are just some people who are who listen to that talk and they're like, are you, like, in a are you, like, in another, I don't know, galaxy? Like, where do you live, that I need to be afraid of some black community who's coming to get me? Right? So I would hesitate to just say that repetition is gonna create reality and then, kind of owning of the white identity, and it clearly does for some portion. And therein lies then I wanna I wanna I wanna go deeper with that because I think that's where the Internet as a tool becomes pivotal. So as you were talking, I was thinking, like, what is some outrageous argument that people you that people, with common sense would know is not true, that you could try to get them to believe is true. And remember, you know, maybe when you were a kid, your parents or adults used to say, the moon was made of cheese. Right? Now we know intellectually as adults, the moon is not made of cheese. But what if someone put up a website saying, well, cheese is, like, say, x percent calcium. And we've shown that since the moon is an offshoot of Earth, that the moon is actually 40% calcium deposits. So if you look at that, then the moon is actually made of cheese. Now what I just said is very simplistic. But if you were to dress that up enough and feed it to people in doses, not in large of it in doses, which is what Twitter does, then you then you can change some hearts and minds. Even though even though if you were to tell them the argument out loud, the mood is made of cheese, people are like, no, dude. You're crazy. What are what are you talking about? Agreed. No. I agree. I mean, that happened post George Floyd. Right? Mhmm. There was a huge change in support of Black Lives Matter and some of the policies that are at least connected to the larger movement, whether it's connected to the organization itself. And over time, what wound up being shown in the media were snippets of violent, you know, riots or protests or reactions to the George Floyd incident or other incidents. And so in some people's minds that then became reality. This is the reality of what's going on across the country. This is the reality of what some large portions of black people are like and to be, so I hear you on that. Right? And they give these little bits, little reasons. Right? The calcium. Right? That's a proof point. Right? That's a that's a support for the theory that the moon is made of cheese. Made of cheese. Right? And so they give these little examples. And I guess the question that and so I agree with that. Right? And then in that context, in the context of all this information, right, then there's some people who then look at their reality, and there's been research, and I've mentioned this previously, and this is where I'm going to agree with parts of your thesis around, you know, whether there's the ability to move people to maybe strengthen their white identity in some way or be or read as being a white person. When folks when research has looked at who went to the, for instance, the January 6th insurrection or who maybe supports certain I forget what they were testing, and I don't wanna be inaccurate, but maybe certain who supports the idea or worries about certain portions of the idea of great replacement theory, this idea that whites are gonna be replaced. Right? And that there's some, like, intentional movement to do so. Those people who showed greater support tended to come from communities where there has been a decrease in the white population, so where they are experiencing some decrease in white numbers. So they have their real experience of what's happening in their community. They then see whatever they see on social media, and a story could be constructed in their mind that might have them feel threatened in some way, some reason to increase the strength of their white identity and their connection with other white people. So I acknowledge that that exists and happens. What I guess I would suggest or offer up is there is a possibility that just as this story of, well, the moon, these examples of why the moon is cheese, right, there's these calcium deposits just as these little pieces of potential proof can be thrown out there about what black people look like. What I'm suggesting is perhaps that might also be the case in how people view white people and their views about race and their identification in being white. Oh, yes. These theories are definitely possible on for either group. I think the success of the theory depends on its marketing strategy. What I'm trying to say, though, Andre, is for people who think that there is some prevalent identification with strong identification with being white among the white population The cabal. That that also could be exaggerated one's mind based on data points. Right? Just as whites might be dropped these little hints from, you know, entrepreneur, you know, entrepreneurs out there who wanna stoke up white division white black white divisions and negative feelings between, between populations based on race that that the degree to which white people go around being thinking about themselves as white and being attached to being white or at least I strongly identifying with being white as some sort of group could also be exaggerated. And I don't know. Again, I don't know the numbers. I don't know how people feel out there, who present as being white to others. I just think there's a lot a good number of people who walk around and just like me are just not thinking about it, for better or worse. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us atguestshealingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topicshealingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. I know with respect to Black women because I have a lot of Black female friends who are very close to me. Like, you know it sends a clear message when all the Black men in your life only date light skinned Black women. So okay like you know what I mean? That like actions and words and messages like they just do. And that that's that can be hurtful. You know? Because like I said, because I mean, who doesn't want to find the one and share your life and then you feel like that's gonna be hard or more difficult than others just because you were born looking a certain way. Yeah. Really sit with that. That it that my finding a partner in life is gonna be harder because of something I just could not control because I was born with a certain skin color. Yeah. That's hard. And that and that hurts feelings. That's hurtful. That is hurtful. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.