Are Black Americans Being Deliberately Shut Out from Advancement? 

Thank you for tuning in to Healing Race. In this video, Andre and I ask, does the perpetuation of racial inequalities reflect an attempt among a large number of white Americans to deliberately shut out black Americans from equal opportunity? Or is it more a product of white Americans just passively being advantaged from historical injustices? Or is it neither? Are there no systemic issues past or present that continue to play a role in today's racial inequities? Let's get to that conversation. Enjoy. I guess I'm just curious. I see the person who has passively benefited from what was inherited through generations. Right? And now perhaps supports policies that maintain that benefit. Right? That that don't seek change in some way as being more prevalent than the person who really thinks that they have ownership over what black people produce or have because of the color of their skin. I just see that as being more prevalent and but funny how the optics bear. I mean, I guess what is your opinion on that? Like, do you, are you in the same camp that most of it is just a preservation of benefits or that it's and a kind of more active belief that it should stay the same because whites deserve this, that they have an ownership to it. I'm saying both psychologies ex I feel that so to explain my logic, I'm going from the micro to the macro and following the path from an individual to what I see collectively at large in society. And so as I follow that path, I feel that both exist. Because when you look in the macro and statistics of all the industries and just, you know, activity in the United States, did you see you still see them winning out doing better in so many areas of life. Right? So you do have those people who passively represent and probably want who are, you know, advocates of social justice and want change and willing to do whatever part that looks like for them. Okay. That's great. And then you have people who feel like, no, I have a right. But either way, look, dude, we're both pragmatic people. So at the end of the day, what do the results bear? What does the optics bear? That's why I was sardonically saying just now funny how the optics bear. Like, oh, but visually we're not racist then how come it all way seems that white people always win every goddamn thing? Like, dude, at some point, it's when you're not in that group and I'm not white, so I'm not a part of that group. It starts to feel that I'm being deliberately shut out. Mhmm. Now I'm just giving you a window into the emotionality of the circumstance. I don't know what the social science bears, but that's what it feels like. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that all of that makes more sense. And I just think I think that the same story can be told with a lot of people protecting advantage that is not color based but is inherited as color based. Right? Then, like, I think you could tell the same story without there being a strong prevalence of people who think that they have an ownership to black lives as you've defined it, as a And I guess in my opinion, if you in in my opinion, if you just omit the concept of an ownership to black lives and what they produce, if enough people are trying to protect privilege, then doesn't that by definition say, like, hey. No. We wanna be in a position of influence over black lives and what they produce, which is a de facto kind of ownership. Like, to me, these things are a matter of degrees, but yeah. I take I take your point that there is nuance and also take your point that there is an implied tipping point. Right? With respect to its it's one it's a very different thing to protect privilege, to say outright no, shut black people out of everything, and we have a right to everything they produce in, and we want to control agency over their lives. There is a tipping point. But what I'm saying is that if you get enough of the former story, it will eventually which is the passive acceptance of advantage. It will eventually become the latter story of no hold up. We just have we want outright privilege. Yeah. That's why you can't be passive. You in these social justice things, one must be active. 1 must be you have to actively stand up against injustice, inequality, and discrimination. Because when you don't, that that tipping point occurs. Yeah. And I just I think this is this is a majorly clarifying conversation because I still think that you can tell the story and still have it be not any kind of embracing of white superiority, but more this passive continuation of a system of a set of conditions that privilege white people on average. Well, he disagrees. Yeah. Well, let me just let me tell you the story that I have. Sure. And you can tell me if you think, you know, it's plausible. I think that there are more white people who are reacting based on their economic status than on their racial status. And I know that we live in a set of conditions where those two things are highly overlapping. Right? There's a plenty of people who are white, who have lower, who are, you know, at a lower economic status, who are living at lower income. Right? But if we look on average across the white population and the black population, obviously, it's skewed. Right? The data bears that out as you mentioned. Right? But people do seek to maintain economic status. Right? And I can see how from the, let's say, outside looking in and you being the kind of moral proactive person that you are about rectifying wrongs that you might wonder, well, why wouldn't someone seek to rectify it unless they really believed it should be the case morally? Right? Right. If someone believes that there should be equality regardless of the color of one's skin, then then shouldn't they act to make that a reality? And if they're not acting to make that a reality, then do they within themselves carry some sense like this is the right state of the world that white people on average are going to be better? That's what I'm hearing you saying. I don't know if I'm if I'm correct in that, but you seem to bring up this question of how can, you know, if there isn't the psychology of ownership, how can these set of conditions largely be replicated generation after generation, right, With some people making out, some black people rising up, but not the tipping point, as you said, you know, where there'd be a change in the balance of power. And I just go ahead. No. Go ahead. No. And I'm just suggesting that I think people are responding much more from the economic side of their experience than the racial side of their experience. I think they are responding much more to you know, you gave the example of how you wrestled with, let's say, the tax decrease on property taxes. Right? And how you didn't put, let's say, your racial justice motivations necessarily front and center, even though I mean, and I said to you I said to you, you still might just think there's another route to seek education justice racially. But that there were these strong economic benefits that that made sense for you to support in terms of policy. And so you were coming from, you know, much more from your kind of economic financial state of affairs than you were from what might be the kind of most important decision on this particular policy issue, tax issue, right, when it comes to benefiting the education, the public education system. And I just think that there are a lot more people who are in, you know, of the people who are white and, you know, relatively affluent, let's say. I just think there's a lot more people who are being driven by those kinds of practical considerations than by the moral imperative of making, you know, of supporting policies that might create greater equity. And so I see them as being kind of passive what's the best word to put to say what I see them much more as being as helping to helping for inequities to persist Uh-huh. Passively, then because of some belief. And if enough people are passive, when enough people are passive or you'd be passive long enough, you're active. Mhmm. You're you now become active. No. But I see what you're saying. I feel I can't speak for all of black people, in my circumstance in voting for this particular voting for, it's an increase in a tax deduction that I voted in favor of. Got it. Yeah. So it would be it's too and it was for a homeowner situation. And, here where I live, your part of your property taxes pays for public schools, but I think it's generally the case in most places in the United States, but I'm not sure. But it paid it helps fund the public schools, teachers' salaries, enrichment, all of that stuff. And, and the bill was very well crafted because it was large enough to go to make a person go, even if they were black. Even if they were black. If you were black and, on the home, you were like, but still. Because it was almost like, that's a lot of money to pass up, which is wrong coming for me, I guess. But I won't say wrong because wrong, right, and wrong depends on an individual. But it was enticing, and I did take I did take it. What, but I think that still serves because I mean, yes, I was a pass passive participant, but enough homeowners do that. Yeah. Now we're all making a collective decision to defund schools, which largely have people of color at them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember the dollar amount. I was like, damn. We don't get that much of a deduction. And we're like, this is we all do that. You do mental math on your finances when you come into some money. And I was like, oh, and I was like, they're making this really hard to say no to. And, you know Yeah. I that's a story that I that's a story that I can accept. I think there's a lot of I'm more palatable to you. Now just more palatable. I just think it I want you because I mean, I think this relates to the and I'm sorry to talk over you, but I was just No. No. No. No. No. Go ahead. No. I just wanna explain, because it's not just palatable. It's not that it's just palatable. I do think it's more palatable. I told you that. Yeah. I think before. For me, it bears truer to my experience of what's going on. And I think the level of pushback that I had around the idea of psychology of ownership is because let's just for a moment say that it is true that it's the case that this kind of more passive protection of advantage you know based on economic kind of considerations is a larger part of the story. Okay? For someone who is motivated in that way to hear a different story that that they actually kind of have within them some kind of more active psychology of ownership where they think they have a right to something because of their color and whoever they're taking from, you know, taking from this color, I think creates more defensiveness. Right? I mean, I think it's hard enough to get people to accept that they are even passively supporting the enduring of inequities. And I think I hear what you're saying. Pardon me for interrupting. I hear No. No. No. Please. I think I've got We've largely been we've largely been speaking as men in and around the realm of public policy and finance. Right? But as I hear you speak, something that brings to mind is beauty. So we all just passively accept that most white women should be on the cover of all the magazines that we get here in the United States. And at some point, when you passively accept that only these white women are the ones who are worthy of magazine covers or, you know, mostly white women, you're actively making a decision on what society considers and wants to hold up is beautiful. Right? And that can feel like I'm taking away because what are the people who don't fit that body type or that skin color or whatever, who are all saying, well, what about me? You know? Yeah. Yeah. I am not attempting to advocate for the continuation of making decisions that are racially inequitable regardless of whether it's finance or cover of magazines or any of that. All I'm saying is that I think the story might be slightly different, though I think we're pretty close in in the story we're imagining in our minds, as being the reason why these inequities persist. I'm just saying that, but I think there might be differences, some differences on the at least on the on the on the fringes, of our theories about it. I think the story can be told. And I think for me, at least in terms of my reality, it's truer to form, that there are a set of conditions that we inherited that are highly inequitable, that lead-to-lead people to make decisions in their best interest that wind up perpetuating those same inequalities. And I hear you that inaction at some point becomes action, that passiveness at some point becomes, you know, active or proactive, because you are the person that you are who seeks to be active in rectifying wrongs and the like. And we can get, and I think that elevates the question of is there a moral responsibility, which you have elevated at other points in times. Like, do white people who might have higher economic status or more power politically in some way or in in whatever way they have influence. Or greater or greater percentage of homeownership when we Ownership. Right. So all the Do you think there's some rule? Is there some moral responsibility to be proactive in in rectifying inequalities? I think, I think yes, personally. And so I think we probably have similar motivations in that way. I just differ in kind of what the psychology is behind people not doing those things, I guess. What well, let me ask you a question. What other than the perpetuation of the system itself or of inequalities themselves, what makes you think that it's one versus the other? Or why what makes you what would make you think that there is a psychology of ownership that is about white people deserving things or having rights to things more than or of black people? I mean, just society in general. Look at mag look at look at all sorts of things. Who gets VC funding? Who's on the cover of beauty magazines? The highest paid professions in which, they're largely white populations. I mean, like I said, if you if you wanna understand my mind, I'm trying to follow from micro to macro. And as I as I'm being told or like, oh, yeah. We're all cool, whatever. In the micro, as I've, you know, follow my finger up to the macro, I don't see that being really, really bearing out. There are just all sorts of things. And so when I use when I created that so that term, you know, came about in my own synthesis, right, of trying to make sense of this. And I was like, so maybe those who are white and the powers that be, they feel they have a right. They have a right to keep perpetuating inequalities. And I mean and it is and sort of taking race out of it. I often have a similar feeling when it comes to the wealthy, the rich, the 1% versus those who are not. Like, I'm like, no, these people know what they're doing. And they persist in in keeping laws and keeping regulation, etcetera, to their advantage to make it easier for them to capture profits. But to make but the decision to give something back remains with them. It's not they're not required to give something back. So to just show you how I'm seeing this, and I use the analogy of wealth because maybe that's tangible to people across racial lines. Right? But I see this. I mean, when you just look at the macro, I see it bearing out that there is an ethos where no, I have a right to I have a right to advantage. Either but maybe I have a right because of my race, because of advantage to advantage, or I have a right because of I'm wealthy to advantage, but I have a right to advantage. Yeah. And, yeah, however, how do you ever create an equitable society if people hold on to that psychology? You have to let that go. And I'm not saying because and not I'm not when I say let it go, I don't mean let it go. Frozen sense. No. Let it go. Let it go. No. Okay. Oh, I don't need that sweet to watch that. And I don't I don't mean from the perspective great joke, by the way. It might be I mean from the perspective of one giving something up. So if you have 4 slices of pizza and I have 4 slices of pizza, you give me an extra slice of pizza. Now I have 5 and you have 3. Baby, just buy a new pizza. Make a new pizza. So I'm not talking about giving something up. I'm talking about expanding the pie. Mhmm. Yeah. So I just made you sigh after that. I told you I'm complicated. Well, I think you told a story just there that has the potential of being more similar to my story, in in the sense that I actually I actually think there is a great case to be made that people who are of wealth seek to maintain the advantage of wealth. I think there and I think there are lots of indicators and studies that show that to be the case. Right? And because wealth and race so strongly overlap In the United States, they do. Seeking to keep advantage of wealth can also keep advantage of racial equality. White people. So that's, I guess, that's what I was attempting to communicate early on is I just I think you can tell the story that you're telling. How else do you connect the micro to the macro with a story of economic advantage? And I'm not saying it's solely that. And I guess what I would ask around all of the VC funding and covers of magazines and Black CEOs of publicly traded companies. I think, like, why isn't that in some sense a perpetuation of, 1, economic status as it's continued to be passed down over generations, and 2, just more basic bias. Right? And I don't know if you think basic bias of the way the little ways that that that preferences are shown to white people relative to black people on average. I don't know if that's what you think of when you think of psychology of ownership. Well, when you get enough basic bias, it starts to feel racist. It starts to feel like a like a system wide barrier. Yep. A racist system wide barrier. And I can see that. I can see how it how it would be how it would feel that way and be perceived that way. And thank you for using the word feel because of I don't have a table of statistics. But what I part of what you and I think are trying to bring to this experience, at least in our friendship, is the emotion because you don't know what it like what it feels like to be me. And that's honestly what I'm what I'm trying to convey. I'm not trying to debate you necessarily on public policy points, but I'm trying to tell you what that feels like. And that's why I keep reverting the language that yeah. In the micro, but if you get enough of that, then it begins to present itself as something very, very different, something that seems deliberately racial and hurtful. Yeah. And I can appreciate why you would want someone to recognize and acknowledge biases that exist in society on an individual level and how those can create larger systemic barriers, challenges, headwinds to black people. I can understand that? I guess my sensitivity to the way that it's talked about or the theory behind it, I understand it's a feeling, Andre. I think some of my hesitation around it is that just as you have feelings you want to articulate and yet at the same time you have a recognition that you don't have statistics, but even more than statistics neither of us, you know, neither you know I are in the heads or in the hearts of people across the United States, white or black. And I think that there could be a lot of people who carry around biases. I mean, is it was it a bias? Was it based on a bias that I actually had an ex you know, a kinda take me back experience when I saw Black Panther of the vision, the image of the black hero? Of course, it was a bias. Of course, it was. Because you assume most because heroes had always been presented to you as white. Yes. Exactly. That bias that I carried with me based on how I was socialized, to me, doesn't equate to a psychology of ownership, though. And I cannot the studio you're not the studio head who's deciding who gets the role. Mhmm. Yeah. So if you want to if you want to, I'm still going to push back a little bit on this point, but I can What's all you like? Because you're not gonna I'm not gonna change my perspective. You and I can go round and round this loop to loop all day. I would like a would like a whiskey, though. No. I think, hopefully, it's gaining to it's getting too greater-to-greater clarity because let me go forward on it. So psychology of ownership then, that seems to be something you see more in people who have who are in positions of power making decisions that affect society or being more relevant. It does it exist more or do you Yeah. But power can also exist in many, many levels. So, yes, from studio heads to take Hollywood as an example because it's a classic example. Studio heads, casting directors who gets callbacks. These are all people who are influenced who we see on the screen and who occupies certain roles. Yeah. And you get enough of it. But bias is starts to feel deliberate. And so it starts to feel as though, you know, you are you deliberately wanna keep black people occupying a certain role and serving in a certain capacity in film. Mhmm. So that means you have a right to the heroin parts, to the hero parts, to the beautiful parts, to the intellectual parts, all the parts that have positive stereotypes associated to them. That's why Panther was so significant, including all of the people who worked behind the scenes on the film. Yeah. Yeah. So I hear you that people across society have various levels of decision-making power. Loan officers, HR managers who do filter their resumes for men for hiring managers. Yes. Yeah. Yes. And I can understand how it can feel deliberate. I guess I wonder why a similar story couldn't be told about the ways in which we just carry bias around because we've been socialized. No. Why can't that why can't that? I'm not saying a similar story can be told, but what I'm saying is that that story eventually leads to what I'm talking about. That's what I'm saying. I think the two stories are connected. And what I'm saying is that, yes, like, that's why I said, if you get enough of these biases, and enough opportunities for a person to act out their biases, then you get to the situation that I'm talking about. So I'm seeing this as a continuum and not as just discrete entities. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I guess, where we so there was someone, an academic who wanted to understand racial segregation or maybe I think that's where he started where his motivations. I actually don't know his motivations. I assume that he wanted to understand it. So he created kind of a simulation, and he said, what if there was some community that had black people and white people? And what if every person, black and white, carried with them a slight, just a slight preference, right? For living in neighborhoods that were made up more of their multi-racial, you know, residents. Right? Not even major. Right? Just a slight preference. So you, Andre, would have a slight preference to live in a community that was more black than white. I would have a slight preference to live in a community that was more white than black. Right? And what happens if we just give people these slight preferences Mhmm. And then let the simulation go and everyone acts on those slight preferences? Mhmm. There are a few things you have to assume. Number 1, you have equal agency beyond between both racial groups. Number 2, they have equal resources. And number 3, both communities would have the same level of resource and support. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for the story that for what he's investigating, absolutely. But for what he's investigating, he he's not even looking for larger economic, you know, outcomes. He's just looking at how segregated would we become with these slight preferences. And what happens is that the town becomes highly segregated at a macro level. Right? Even though at a micro level, people have these slight preferences for living in communities that are more of their multi-racial residents. Right? And so what I'm just putting forth is that slight biases can lead to mac to large disparities, and these don't have to be deliberately race like, racist in any ways. I mean, maybe you think a slight preference is racist even if unconscious. And that's fine, but it's convenient that the end result on the macro level ends up working the way people in power want it to work. Yeah. And what I what I, I guess, where I would differ, and we don't we don't have to continue on. I think I think kind of some of the differences in how we perceive it are clear. Where I would differ is on 2 things, or and where I would be similar is on one thing. I would be similar, on in the on the case that unconscious bias or otherwise or perpetuation of current conditions, you know, or otherwise, there's still if you have decision making powers of any kind, with greater power comes greater responsibility. Right? And if we think in our minds that the ideal is some level greater level of equity. Right? Never reaching perfect parity one way or the other, but greater equity, you know, then in the cases where you have decision making power, you have a responsibility to do so in a way that doesn't perpetuate a system or a set of conditions that are unequal that but that moves things in a in a in a more equitable direction. I depend on controls. Yeah. And I under I agree with you on that. And I think just the sole thing that we disagree on is the extent to which decisions are made, not in a deliberate manner. I mean, every you know, presumably people make deliberate decisions. Right? Yeah. They deliberately don't choose black resume. Psychology, you know, psychologists would say we're more on we're more intuitive and unconscious and emotional than that, but let's even I'll even give, you know, I'll even agree to the idea that there's some level of deliberation and decisions or at least we're making decisions. Right? I think the fact that people are making deliberate decisions and carrying bias and showing bias in those decisions doesn't necessarily mean that their decisions are made deliberately based on race. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingraceshow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. When I reacted to Black Panther, I wasn't reacting because I carried a psychology in me that says black people can't have these positions. What I was reacting to is, Woah, it makes a difference for me to see someone in that way because I have not seen them in that way. That I actually that it was jarring to me, because it was so unfamiliar. And That's still great granddaddy. That's still yeah. Because great granddaddy set up a system where you wouldn’t rarely have ever seen black heroes. So putting great granddaddy aside, for a moment, can you though recognize or do can you accept, I guess? Does it make sense to you that my reaction to that, doesn't necessarily reflect me thinking that that's the right state of being for the right set of conditions for our country. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling Healing Race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.