Do White Americans Understand the Black American Experience?

Black was cool. It really was, in terms of pop culture because we did not have projects nearby us. We did not have to deal with the that those contrasting realities. We were we really didn't have to confront any of that. So black was cool. Black was like, man, it's this is this is the ultimate in artistic talent and cool, you know, because we were just white people. White people. It's okay being white. It's alright. It's alright. It's alright. I'm gonna say I have to echo Todd's question to Susan back to you, though. So what happened when you left that enclave of whiteness, and you finally got in a multiracially diverse place? And were there tensions there? Because, like, you spent all of your, you know, formative childhood years around white people and kind of learned about black people at a distance. Yeah. And then now, bam, they're in your face. I believe Marin wanted to explore something with Susan and ask her a question and maybe kick things off this evening. Gosh. Couldn't write to it. Hi, Susan. Hi. Sure. Hoping that I remember my question perfectly, but I just had, your background just seemed so really, interesting to me and, interested in, like, almost just how your perceptions and opinions have evolved given the environment that you grew up in. You know, not only I mean, thank you so much for sharing, you know, some of the different, comments and bigger trees and things like that you experienced. But also, I kind of got the impression that your community was not very, you know, integrated and you were not exposed in a day-to-day basis to people of a lot of different, cultural backgrounds. So I'm really interested in how you kind of went about, exploring that and how those around you really responded to it. Oh, interesting. That's a real there's a lot in that. But and thank you for asking. Yeah. So, I mean, I told you guys a little bit last time about, you know, being growing up in a very segregated city of Atlanta, and the black area of town was, you know, considered to be unsafe, and it was, really. And what were you guys safe about it? Crime. High crime. Mhmm. And a and a white person in that neighborhood, you know, you might be I don't know. I just felt like you might be extra targeted, if you were there because you look like you don't belong. And, you know I guess it was the 19 seventies? Yeah. Coming of age was my 19 seventies in Atlanta. Yeah. And I lived in a suburb. So and then, yes. And then, also, when I went to college, I went to college in downtown Atlanta at Georgia Tech, and the housing projects were right next door. So, like, literally, a block from my dorm room was where the project started, and it was a big housing project. And it was really an unsafe area. I mean, it was it was bad. It was really bad, and it overflowed onto our campus. Was that your first interaction with black people, like, when you went to college where you saw them kind of on a Yeah. More consistent basis? Yeah. Yeah. And there were some people in in the in the school, you know, not that many, black people at Georgia Tech. It was, you know, still more white and Asian, probably, mostly white. But then, yeah, but then there was a housing project that was all black, and it was very unsafe. I mean, it was there were shootings there all the time, and, you know, on campus, there were people that I know I was in a group of people that was shot at 1 night. You know, I was yeah. And then another friend was, objected and beaten, and yeah. I mean, there was there are bad things that happened all around us, and some people were shot and killed or, you know, mugged, whatever. So you just had to be really on your guard. So I was just kind of lived in the state of just being on guard all the time, a state of vigilance, I guess you could say, and still thought of, like still didn't interact that much with black people except that I got involved in stuff in college and so I interacted. I got some friends who were black, which was great, and then we had great time together. We took some trips together, you know, mixed group of people. So, you know, when things in the media started to change and so I start you know, my perceptions kinda opened up as I grew up. I think I still probably harbored bigoted feelings for, you know, some time in my life. I can't really say when, you know, it might have faded away, and maybe it hasn't faded away. Maybe, you know, it's probably still there. I think we're all bigoted in some way. So, but just trying to become more aware as I grew up and just seeing images in the media helped, you know, positive role models, you know, in the in the media. Oh, I meant to mention in high school, the TV show Roots, there was this miniseries called Roots. Oh, we know what it is. And I don't know who I don't know. I don't think anybody here is old enough to remember that. Oh, no. No. We've all seen it. We know what it is. But, I mean, I saw it in real time. Like, I was in high school, and we were it was required viewing. I Andre, you're not as old as me. You couldn't be. There's no way. No. No. But don't think it was required viewing, I believe, when I was in 4th or 5th grade. Really? Wow. So I watched roots in school and Okay. Well, good. I'm glad because that really took That did help. Was that was a seminal moment and eye opening and every like, the whole country. It was it was just a moment when we're all watching the same thing and all learning things we never knew before. So that was just really, really changed my views a lot. And in fact, it's funny. During the pandemic, my husband and I were searching for things to watch, and we ended up streaming Roots again just to see how did it how does it look through eyes now? How did you respond to it? Yeah. Now and later in life. Because I was talking to really hungry. I mean, it's overactive and, you know, kinda corny dialogue, but, you know, so that's what we think now. But that's in the seventies. In the seventies, boy, that was that was really changing, and we talked about it in school. So that was that was informative. Eventually, I graduated from college and moved to California, I think I mentioned before. And just being in a multicultural metropolis like Los Angeles, boy, changed me. Started to break down that fee. I mean, I think I still had fear being in areas where I was like, oh, I'm obviously the minority here and feel feeling that discomfort or fear. And I worked in I actually worked in South Central LA, to the point where during the right during the Rodney King riots, again, some people I knew were shot at. Some people that where I work, they were crossing the street. We're all trying to get home because everybody told us go home. It's not safe out there. So, some people that I work where I did got shot at and hit. So a couple of them got shot. So that was a scary time. So and I was also getting ideas in my head from some conservative media. So I started to sort of get this more libertarian conservative bent as I was growing older, and I was listening to Larry Elder. And Larry back then, Larry Elder was a different Larry Elder than he is now. He was not I don't recognize the man anymore, really. Like, I don't know who that man is, but I was listening to Larry Elder that was saying, you know, stop being a victim. Like, everybody's walking around with these victim mentalities or victories, so just stop it. You know, that was his big thing and just, you know, lift yourself up, the bootstraps and everything. So I was listening to a lot of that, and I read Shelby Steele. You know, he came out with the, the content of our character, I think. It was just one of his first big books, so I read that. And a lot of that was getting into my head. So thinking, well, people just need to really learn how to lift themselves up and get themselves out of bad situations. So that thought process was percolating in my brain for many years. And then, you know, I guess it slowly evolved where I think now, I don't know. I feel like I'm rambling, but No. You're not. No. You're not. We're taking it all in. You know, all this stuff influenced me. I just have to say, all of these things I remember influencing my thoughts. And yeah. Susan, can I ask a specific question? Yeah. Just to take it back. So you mentioned some kind of pivotal moments. You meant you mentioned roots. You mentioned, going to college. You mentioned coming out to LA, to California, as these kind of seminal moments where your world was opened up Yeah. More than it had been. And I'm just curious, you growing up and hearing what you heard in your community, right? Kind of outright what you describe as kinda outright bigotry. Right? Yeah. And then you get put in these new environments. How do you how do you reconcile like; how do you experience that? You have a lot of dichotomies going on, girl. Yeah. Right? You hear stuff that you've heard, but then you're meeting people in college and or even before that in high school, you're watching roots and you're like, how do you make sense of what you heard and then what you saw as you had these seminal experiences? I think I was more open to change and acceptance when I heard new information that had me change my thoughts because I studied science. I mean, my field of study was physics, and so I always had a scientific mindset and I'm willing I always been taught to, you know, when you see in for information, when you're presented with information, that's, you know, not what you thought, but that's the new truth. You accept it because, you know, it's true. And so I think I've may I might have been more accepting over the years of, okay, you know, changing my way of thought when I got new information a little more easily because of that. So I just don't think it wasn't any single moment that I felt changed. Just like as I got new information, I took it in. I'm like, oh, okay. I think I was looking at that wrong. You know? And then hearing about, Jim Crow and redlining and learning more about that as an adult, which I didn't hear learn about at all as a kid. Okay. That's new information. I take that in, and I change my view a little bit. Yeah. And then hearing you know, having heard some counter voices to the Larry Elder types and hearing some voices on the other side, like, oh, okay. Now that. It's all feeding into this like, Landon said last time, it's a narrative that's going on in my head that's constantly evolving as I get new information. And you guys are part of that too. This is another seminal moment for me in in getting more input on this. And, oh, also being part of Braver Angels, we started I started reading books that we had conversations about. So I read, Caste and White Fragility and White Guilt, and I forget. There are several books about race that we read, and that opened me up too. So what about your first meaningful kind of, like, interactions with black people when you were older? So as you were growing up, so you heard what you heard, you also experienced kind of danger in another neighborhood and danger outside of Georgia Tech. Yeah. Like, so it sounded like you had you where I think you used the word on guard. Yeah. But then you have your first interactions with black people in a more intimate way. How did you feel? Did you bring those nerves into it? Or was it just easy to relate to someone? Like, how did you experience that? Because I feel like sometimes Yeah. There's information. Like, we could have ideas in our head, but it's like when you really meet somebody or, you know, interact with them in a deeper way that some of our socialization can come out or change, and I'm wondering how you experience that. It does. I mean, you have some apprehension because I mean, this is like, oh, okay. This is something new, and I have this eased that tension in my mind. Something eased that tension where you started to get comfortable. What Well, just getting to know people, just spending more time with them. Mhmm. You know? Just exposure. That's all. And just like, hey. We're, you know, hey. We're kinda the same. We kinda have the sometimes, you know, they're on stated that. Other people are on guard too. I mean, they're afraid in certain some of the same situations that I'm afraid in. You know? It's like, oh, okay. You know? And we're just you feel like you the more exposure you have, the more you feel you realize you have in common, and you don't need to be so scared or on guard or, apprehensive. That's it, really. Although and I learned and working in South Central, I you know, it was a bad neighborhood, and you and I just learned you have to kinda just be it was a bad neighborhood. We just had to be aware. You know what I mean? Just be so I'd go out for lunch, and I'd just be aware of where I am because, you know, there were carjackings going on and stuff like that. And I just had to just be aware. You know? Yeah. Yeah. How does that Landon, how does that compare to kinda your experience? Because you talked about your background was a little bit different, where I mean, I don't know if you heard outright bigotry in the same way that Susan did, but you described more a learning of history as if, you know, hey, we're done. Right? We had slavery, we had the civil war, we won it, civil rights, we're good, we're done, you know, and this sense of pride. And you shared a couple of things. 1, you shared maybe as you went to college or went out in the world, you learned more of the history that kind of changed your, you know, some of your views or maybe nuance, you know, made your views more nuanced, but you also kind of specifically talked about learning rap and kind of hearing, you know, hearing what you heard and having feelings about that. And I'm just curious, what was your evolution like in the same way as you started to, let's say, learn new things? What were those initial reactions to rap? And when you came to a different narrative than what you learned in school, like, how did you how did you experience that? Or what was what was your evolution in that way? Yeah. Yeah. I grew up what I would say is pretty much non exposed to race. You know? It's just mostly, it was a lower to middle class area nearby a copper mine, copper smelter. We were the poor part of town. I have no problem with that. My parents grew up from very poor backgrounds. So, I didn't really hear that much about race. I had friends who were Mexican. That was my experience with race growing up. And but we're all kind of the same class. You know? But, yeah, my, I had a pride in American history. I did because, you know, I, I had it was a very noncomplicated version. And I learned about a lot of American people growing up, including, prominent, black Americans, and I was just What was said about them? Those prominent black Americans you learned about, what was told to you about them? Oh, that I mean, Frederick Douglass, he was kind of it was a, you know, probably a 30-page book that cast him as a brave hero in American history. And also Harriet Tubman was kinda one of my heroes because I thought, wow, that was that's one of the most amazing people, that I could ever meet. And people that broke the color barrier were particularly prominent in my mind of Jackie Robinson was, you know, someone that that I really looked up to, in sports, you know? And so, you know, that's why, I saw them in those stories, and I was like, wow, we had great people like this. And they broke these barriers. And now, you know, I didn't but I didn't learn, enough of the complications that happened. Like, Jim Crow was kind of I didn't really learn that much about Jim Crow. You know? I didn't learn about what was happening while I was growing up, to black Americans. So then when I got, older and started reading more history, especially about Jim Crow, initially, it was really uncomfortable. It was What was uncomfortable for you? Just learning, that this was going on while we were supposedly a whole nation. You know, we were a nation that was that had this united vision that I understood as I understood America. And this was actually happening, while, supposedly, we had come together as a nation and defeated slavery. And, you know, in some ways, I thought we had decided to overcome racism as a nation. You know, I thought that that was that I did the whole idea that that people would be judged, any aspect of their character would be determined by their race was, to me, seemed like an alien idea. I never understood it, growing up. So to realize that that was actually the actual facts on the ground was that this was actually the case. Did that make you more aware in seeing it around you? So after you learned about Jim Crow, for example, now you start to see instances of racial bias and actions that were negative toward black people around you. Were you more cognizant? So I didn't have enough black people around me to really make those observations, Andre. You know? I, you know, I did, see black people in pop culture. I and I and black people were a major part of pop culture even in white super white Utah. You know? Really? Yeah. I mean, everybody wants everybody wanted to be a, you know, love rap. That was really popular, even long ago. Like So you had before Eminem, there were white boys, one to be rappers. Yeah. No. They wanna be rappers. They wanna dress like rappers. And were you one of them? I mean, that was I was not one of them. I'm just putting you on. I'm just putting you on. But you listen to the BC boys is pretty much what Landon is saying. And that's cool, but I like some DC boys too. That's right. I mean, I was, I was not, but, you know, the black was cool. It really was, in terms of pop culture because we did not have projects nearby us. We did not have to deal with the that those contrasting realities. We were we really didn't have to confront any of that. So black was cool. Black was like, man, it's this is this is the ultimate in artistic talent and cool, you know, because we were just white people. White people. It's okay being white. It's alright. It's alright. It's alright. I must say I have to echo Todd's question to Susan back to you, though. So what happened when you left that enclave of whiteness, and you finally got in a multiracially diverse place? And were there tensions there? Because, like, you spent all of your, you know, formative childhood years around white people and kind of learned about black people at a distance. Yeah. And then now, bam, they're in your face. Right. I came to California, at San Diego, but I was in higher education. You know, I was in graduate school and postdoctoral studies for forever. You know? So even then, like, there's not that many black people. I played basketball with a few. And all I know is I wanted to interact with the black people, the few of them that there were. I wanted to show my support. That was always what I felt inside me is how could I you know, it's not like I was, I just if I have the opportunity, I wanna be friends with them. That's it. Because, you know, being at a distance and learning what I knew from a distance, I was like, well, we all need to support these black people. And that was kinda as far as it got for me, you know. So, you know, I didn't have to live near dangerous areas or black and white, contrasting, suburbs or anything like that. Still, even in San Diego, I can go downtown, and there's some black areas there. I, but still, I just don't have, tremendous exposure to black communities. One last follow-up question, and then I, you know, just wanna see what other questions y'all have. And, Mary, since you were the genesis of this, kinda how you how you and Marcus as well, how you kind of take it all in. You had talked about kind of black is cool, but then I know during the first conversation, you also had feelings come up about the kind of things that were talked about in rap. And you're like, well, maybe this is not the way we wanna be. And I'm just curious, I'm curious, well, you know, what were you responding to that kind of stirred emotions, 1, and then 2, as you learned more of, let's say, the complicated history, did that give you any different vantage point of maybe what was expressed through rap? Or I guess, how did you come to kind of process that all? Yeah. It's a good question. I didn't think that cool was actually I never really thought that cool was, like, smart. I was kind of on the outside of that when I was a kid. I really never got drawn into, you know, pop culture. I never Yeah. It never really appealed to me. But a lot of my friends definitely loved it. Yeah. And, you know, I disagreed with, glorification of violence, in in music. I really disagree with this specific, Landon, because I'm thinking, like and, Mary, you help me out because you know music way better than I do. So you're talking about, like, NWA, n word I'm just gonna say niggas with attitude. Right? Yeah. And so that sort of aggressive thing of, like, we gotta take these streets, fuck the cops, all of that. That's what turned you off, Landon? Well, that was I mean, I didn't listen to NWA. Lot I often, saw rap on MTV and then have you know, I was I was very, Utah has its very strict moral codes, sexual moral codes included. Right? And, you know, so those violated the moral codes that I've been taught growing up in a lot of ways. They were just foreign to me. So I never thought that that that was, you know, a healthy way to think, but I didn't have background on it either. And I will answer Todd's question, as I got older, I started to realize that, oh, if you fill in the backstory here, then you start to see what these people, MWA, what are they expressing and where is it actually coming from? Then I started to be like, oh, wow. This is, incredible resentment in some ways, being expressed. And it is, you know, it is feelings, that have accumulated over, you know, centuries, basically, that are coming out here. And I was like, okay. I understand. But, yeah, growing up, it was very foreign to me. Marin and Marcus, what how do you take that all in and how does it relate to your background and before we open it up to other conversation other questions. It didn't really surprise me that much because I can say even in my really kind of white suburban environment, I felt like, you know, black culture, whether it was through music or TV shows, and I was coming up in the air, like, when I was in high school, like the Fresh Prince of Bel Air and Martin and all those sorts of shows, which shows were on. And my white classmates definitely liked them and thought they were funny and sometimes really, really tried to use them to relate to me in a way that did not work. I mean, because different than your experience? Or well, because to them, that was the measure of that's what being black is. Black is. And I was a lot more of a Huxtable kid. I studied classical piano for 20 years. So a lot of the questions I would get were like, well, Marin, why aren't you, like, you know, real black people? Or they would try to say things like, oh, well, like, I'm blacker than Marin because I know all the characters are Martin's. I didn't really watch Martin that much. Like, things like that. Like, it would that was their measure of what being black was. So it was kinda weird. But also it felt as if, like, it was comfortable because it was entertainment. Whereas in, you know, in our academic environments, like I graduated top of my class and that made a lot of the same students who thought Martin was really cool, really angry. And would even get similar sentiments from talking, you know, to my parents as they were growing respective businesses and things like that. That there was kind of this sentiment of it's great if we're running up and down the field or court, but don't try to own the team. It's great when you're on the talk show, but don't try to, you know, own the production company and compete in business. Oh, it's great when you're and this is also why my parents were very, very strict on making sure my brothers my brothers and I were not, like, class clowns and things like that because they were just like, that's what it's like. You're supposed to have 21 liners, and you're supposed to whatever, where it's just like, no. You're not gonna do that. You're gonna go in there and compete academically. So it was interesting seeing that, you know, it was kind of a cool, but cool in a certain context. How did you experience that anger? How did you experience that? Like, was it anger because they're competitive or did you feel that the anger was projected towards you because you were black and on top? Well, first of all, I didn't really understand it, and actually until I was older. I mean, because again, look, there's a lot of this is reflecting back as now, you know you know, a black woman in my forties. Right? When I was in school, I wanted to fit in so badly, you know, to the point that my, you know, teachers and things like that would have to have conversations with my parents because they were concerned that I would start not speaking up as much in class, or I would be embarrassed if I got the a plus on the exam or whatever. Because it was really clear that I was doing all I could to fit in, and they didn't wanna see me compromise my academic performance, to try to do that. Which I mean, I know is common amongst kids of all different sorts of races, but that tend to tended to be, you know, the big concern. Yeah. It was I didn't really, I think the first time I got really angry was senior year of high school when college acceptances started coming in. Where, you know, I had gone to the same high school for all 4 years. At the end of every year, they would announce who had the highest GPA, and they would give out awards for who excelled in all the different subjects, like the most outstanding English student. Most you know that kind of a thing. And it was a joke amongst my classmates. Why do we even go? Marin sweeps the awards. And I did. And then, you know, senior year came around. And I remember the big point of contention was when I got into Duke and one of my white male classmates didn't. Then that was when I really felt the turn, and it was the whole, like, those schools have to let you in because you're black. Or and then, you know, looking back on it, some of it was parents. My parents told me, you're gonna get in everywhere that you apply because you're black. And that was when I got here. I was like, you'll have seen me for the last 4 years. First of all, I tutored some of you over the last 4 years to help you pass certain classes, and then that's what it whittles down to. And, honestly, that was when in my mind, I was like, I'm getting out of the state, and I intentionally chose not to attend any university in Texas. May I ask you a question? Because Landon and Susan, did any of that awareness because Susan was at her university, and, Landon, you were in higher ed. Does any of what Marin is sharing ever landed with you and your experience? Did you know that these were some of the things that black people pursuing higher education were going through? And was there ever any sympathy that you witnessed in Europe in your backgrounds? I didn't know. I honestly, I don't think I knew they would be going through something like what Mirren described. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I heard only secondhand, through the press that those kinds of things happen. I did not witness it Yeah. In my, I would say in higher ed, I went to school that was, you know, 85% liberal progressive. So, it was pretty much unanimous that, you know, we needed to diversify. We wanted to provide opportunities. We wanted to so I can say that if any of us have the opportunity to assist in giving opportunities to black people, we were all in. You know? And that we were mostly very pro Obama when that was that was during that time. And I was, an Obama democrat. You know? So yeah. I again, it's all secondhand. You know? There's no not a lot of firsthand. Yeah. And I was very much in favor of affirmative action, back then, and I thought that I saw that as a really good thing. Mhmm. Would you know? And then in the years, I guess, after in the workforce, then after many years in the workforce, you start to see the effects of affirmative action. And What effect did you see? What did you see? More people more people of color in the workplace and rising to positions where there there's more power associated with it, more money and power. But then there's also the there's the side too that Marin was talking about. Then people will say in the workplace, they'll say, oh, that person was just promoted in their job because they're black, you know, or because it's a woman or something like that. And, you know, in some cases, maybe that's true. And I think maybe I got some advantages because I was a woman here and there. I mean, there was there's good and bad to that. And then there's also the bad part of affirmative action that peep that'll put a target on your back that maybe people will think that you're there just because of that. So there's you know, all these things are nuanced. I mean, there's good and bad in all of it. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingrayshow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingrayshow.com. -As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. -So, I ask these questions to kinda set us up for, the next portion, and this is one that I really wanna direct with Marcus because it's a tension that he and I have personally together, and I openly acknowledge it on this show. And it's one that I need to explore because I just don't know the answer. And I'm almost gonna literally read the question off the show notes because is the historical messaging about race, Marcus, and everyone in the group that we've received, is that still relevant? Because I feel personally that I hold on to a little bit of what's in the past and maybe things that have been sort of I've mayor and his experience since that's the experience that's leading us into this next, sort of, topic of conversation. So I hold on to the mayor's experiences and have this sort of beware, beware, beware signal in my mind. But then when you hear a Susan and a Landon talk and it all sounds so good and gravy right now on the phone, you know, it makes me ask myself, number 1, is this just Placation by Susan and Landon? Yeah. I'm gonna be specific. And then number 2 That's good. And is it being I holding on to something I just need to let go of if times have changed? Marcus, I really wanna know what you think about that. Are you saying Marin's, supervision? Experience is valid, but maybe we need to let maybe times have changed and maybe we need to kinda let it go. Or is it still happening in another? Is it manifesting itself differently, but the motivation is the same in present day? To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.