Do Black Americans Still Have To Face More Obstacles Growing Up?

Thank you for tuning in the healing race. In this episode our 4 guests continue to discuss how their upbringings shape their views about race. Marin and Marcus share what they learned as black Americans growing up about what it means to be black or white in our country. The conversation touches on the role of race and standards of beauty and how we see or don't see ourselves represented in books and media and in what it takes to succeed in this country. What kind of effect can race have on how we see ourselves, who we wanna be, and what others expect us to be as we grow up? This conversation opens up an emotional window into the ways race can seep into our upbringings, and it provided a chance for our guests to find some common experiences and outlooks while also showing that having the same racial identity does not always mean that you have the same kind of life experiences. So let's get to that conversation now. Enjoy. One question, Marcus and Marron, would be, like, what did you learn about white people growing up? What were their learnings that you had? Because we My question for Marin is what did you learn about white women? You know, I asked our question. It was more like lessons I took in, like, very rarely explicit things. Like, very rarely were their explicit things said. It was just messages I took in from around me. I learned, for example, like, white women were just like the ideal. They were the ideal in beauty. They were the ideal in femininity. They were, you know, the ideal that, like, every man wanted 1 and that, honestly, like, if a black man were good enough, you would know he was good enough because he got a white woman. That that sort of thing. And so I do remember, you know, being young and I mean, while I have braids now, I relaxed my hair straight. There were times, like, I remember, like, I would, like, pretend to toss my hair and walk and act like a white woman thinking that that's gonna make boys like me, and things like that. I don't know if y'all ever seen the movie Precious, but there's a part in the movie where she's looking in the mirror and she's daydreaming about being white. I can relate to that, and I cried in the theater because I remember doing that when I was really young. So it was like you know? And, you know, like, while we were kids, you just remember, like, junior high and high school where there was always, like, homecoming queen and prettiest and all of that, and they were all certain looking white women. So that was kind of, you know, what I took in and even, you know, back when I was, like again, Robbie and pay attention to, like, books I read and things like that. I mean, it was Sweet Valley High. It was Nancy Drew. It was, you know, there just was not, you know, a lot. I mean, I look at the books that you today get to read, and I was like, there was none of this. And how did you evolve emotionally given all of that messaging that was coming in? Well, my time at Stanford was really, really big for me, because, honestly, where I began to I don't wanna say break from white people. But, I mean, most of my closest friends into my closest circle growing up, I mean, were white kids, my classmates, my neighbors, everything. But it was my senior year in high school when college acceptances started coming in that the same people I had grown up with since 6th grade or before, it was Stanford only took you because you're black. My parents told me that, you know, if you and I both apply to that school, they have to take you over me. And I was sitting there, and I was like, these are people I tutored, you know, when they were close to, like, flunking chemistry and things like that. And to turn around and say things like that to me, it was very much like, okay. Like, we were not the friends that I thought we were. And when I got to college, I really began to explore who I am as a black woman, a young black woman. I began to grow out my relaxed hair. I began to take African American studies classes. While the black community at Stanford wasn't big, it was big to me. Like, 600 black students on one campus, you know, in the grand scheme of a university is not a lot, but that was a lot to me. And I threw myself in it. And, like, most of my friends from Stanford are other black people. And it was also interesting seeing the reaction that my white friends from home had to that. It definitely turned into a, this is not the mayor that I that I know, and I grew up with. You're just so black now. Mhmm. I'm putting it out. I would be, you know, I would be told that. And I'd be like, I've always been black. But there was something that was making them uncomfortable about the journey that I was taking. And a lot of that involves me confronting some of the negative things I learned, again, directly or indirectly about black people. Being in the black upper middle class or upper class, there can be a lot of the whole, like, almost respectability politics thing going on where we fight really hard to prove we're not like the black people that white people hate or are talking about. Like, we have to prove we speak proper English. We are educated. We work hard. We're not the ghetto people. And so we'll kind of turn on one another that way. And so I didn't realize how much I had internalized that, you know, growing up. So my time in in at university was really interesting to me, you know, through my friendship with people like Andre who grew up very different from me. Because the few black people who were around me, you know, were the children of my parents' friends. So they were also children of doc doctors and lawyers and things like that. So I hope that answers some of the question here. There was a lot of We got. We got those. Yeah. Any thoughts or questions about what Marin said? And I'd love to hear Marcus as well what you're Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I'm sorry. Marin, you hurt my heart when you were talking about being a little girl and thinking that a white girl was or white woman were the ideal. That just hurts. That was really pains me. Oh, thanks. Thanks so much, Susan. You know what? It's a I would say it's one of the things that I'm very sensitive to this day. I mean, while standards of beauty are definitely really evolving, like, I pay attention to sometimes things that I view as being somewhat performative. For example, a few years ago, the actress Lupita Nyong'o was named the most beautiful woman in the world. You know, she got the cover of People Magazine. Right? And she's this dark skinned African Mexican actress, you know, with natural hair, everything of that sort. Okay. Great. Lupita is stunning. But I remember saying to Andre, I'll believe that the world believes this when she gets the romantic lead role across from George Clooney. She's not gonna get it. So this was just a, see? Like, we think 1 dark skinned girl with an afro is cute. But, like, you're not gonna tell me that she is viewed as beautiful until she is competing with Jennifer Aniston for the leading man's heart in a movie. Until then, it's just, like, kind of the same thing. And that that seems to connect a little bit with the way people question you being at Stanford as well. Right? There there's an idea that that anyone who would get into this kind of performative in some way. Right? It's not based on the merits in some way that that there may be that that excellence in the back in the black community in some in some way. It's all performative. So I was told I was lying when I told people I was a graduate of the university. Yeah. I said, you're lying, and I said, who would lie about that? You can just call the school, and they'll tell you. I mean, I it it's very interesting too. Like, they I don't wanna veer us to, of course, but when it comes to race and kind of colleges and elite colleges or whatever, and I know I've shared this with Andre before too, I've said, you know, well, we have known, you know, that there's been that there's been kind of a gain to admissions to these universities for generations. As in what I'm careful about is, you know, when these universities were very, very white I'll use Stanford as an example. Go look at any Stanford graduating class from before, like, 1981, like, when they started making their focus on diversity, and it was extremely white. And it's interesting because back then it was like, oh, my gosh, to go to Stanford, like, you must be smart. You must be brilliant. It's so amazing, blah, blah, blah, blah, like all of this. And now that, you know, a university like Stanford is predominantly nonwhite, especially with the Asian population and, like, everything of that sort, now I've noticed the national dialogue is fat elitist. Whatever. It's nothing to go to that school. You're trying to take it away from these kids. Like, who are like I was like, no. It's still the same. I mean, I told myself I couldn't get into Stanford today. I look at the application. Some of these kids go in today, and I'm like, oh, things have it's gotten that much more competitive. You know? Yes. Well, there are things to talk about. Let's not take it away from these kids of all different races and colors who are getting in, because I do think part of that is rooted in well, when it was merit based, it was all white. Again, kind of undertones there. We'll get we'll get to some of that conversation. I just want to, give Marcus a chance to share a little bit of his background before we move to, Landon's question because, Landon, you kind of you kind of started to veer us there in terms of your back your background and how it related to history and how you viewed history. And I know you have a question about that. Deep gram. Marcus, what about your what did you learn when it came to, let's say, white people? What was the messaging? I will actually tie what I learned about black people and white people altogether. So I didn't grow up in the sense of, again, thinking that I was less than. I guess I would say one of my earliest memories would be the idea that you have to be twice as good to get half of what they have. And we kinda talked about this before, but it was more so a sense of don't leave this house and embarrass me. Act like you have some home training. Just keeping a level head and being cognizant that, again, you're not gonna get extended the same grace that others may be extended or given. And, like, you just have to know who you are. It's not it's not to say that you're less than, but you have to know who you are and know your place. And so with that said, even to this day, some of my best friends are white. Some of the friends that I made in college, friends that I still have from back home growing up. So I've never really felt that I was less than they were or that they were better. I've never been presented with the idea or the assumption that that I'm less than or they're better than me. It was just you have to know your place and your role. And I get that. Like, you are mindful that your family taught you have different constraints. Yes. And I didn't grow up in a divided home. Mhmm. My mom and dad were married for 29 years. My mom passed away when I was 14 from pro cancer. So I didn't grow up thinking that the Cosby show was a fictitious dream or that that's not the ideal black family. Like, that was my reality. My dad was there. He was present. And the whole time that my mom was sick, like, he was a stand-up guy. Like, he was there. So that just wasn't my experience. And so not to discredit the experience that others may have. Yeah. But you just have to know, like and be cognizant and remind yourself of your own reality and truth, if that makes sense. So you didn't learn anything about who you were as a black person vis a vis white people or white people. And, you know, you didn't learn anything about the comparison one being better or not, or worse. I won't say that I didn't learn it, but it wasn't an everyday topic. It was kind of just unspoken. I see. So what was the premise? What's the premise of the twice as good to get half as much? Like, what does is it because this is, you know, was the communication like this is the society we live in? So you have to be twice as good to get half as much. And so what is what is the society we live in? The society that we live in does what that forces you to need to be twice as good and to get half as much? Like, what was communicated about the society you live in? Just that you're not gonna be extended the same race that white people may be given, or you're not gonna get away with this. So to bring it in concept, I'm a cop. It wasn't I never thought that I would leave my home and be a victim of police brutality. It was more so you can't go out. You can't do this. Don't do that. Act like you have home training. Don't embarrass me. And I just knew that if I went out and I did those things, that I wasn't gonna be extended that grace. Mhmm. So may I add another thing that can add context to that? Barack Obama. Perfect example. Like, the scrutiny when he was running for office or made office, like, no one and same things with Ketanji in the Supreme Court. Like, they were asking for her LSAT scores. They didn't do that for white candidates. You know, like, they were asking for, like, I want Barack Obama's transcripts and proof that he went to these schools. They don't do that for white candidates. It's just that there will be extra scrutiny on, like, how did you get here because you were not supposed to be here. That happens. Even, you know, when you say twice as good to get half as much, I mean, you can look at the Obamas now. But when he was running for office, they were still paying off their student loans. That's how behind they were in terms of things. But people were still like, how are they getting this money and going to in a way that they just don't ask or challenge white people. And that is when there's this, you have to be that much more impeccable. Says one little speck, one, you know, c plus on his Harvard transcript, it's done. It's any. Like, you're going down. Like, it's the way it is. And, also, to say, the man wore a tan suit, and it was a whole headline. A tan suit. I was like Well and, well, for women, we're all they always comment on what we wear no matter what. Right. You got a taste of that. Landon and Susan, when you when you hear these like, what are your thoughts? Like, how does it sit with you, or what or what questions do you have Yeah. About what that experience is like? Yeah. Right. I mean, I've heard this, you know, these events. My experience is, you know, I came from, pretty poor background, and I went you know, if we look up my high school, the high school rankings, it's 1 out of 10. You know? And so I didn't have, a great educational head start. You know? So and I and I but I had this curiosity that came to me when I was around 22, and I went to college, and I'm just incredibly fascinated that this all existed, and I really hadn't known about it. You know? But this was 25 years ago. And at the time, you know, in the last 20 years, there has been a push for diversity, in colleges, and I was part of that. And I always thought that this is a good thing. You know? And so I was proud to be part of it. I didn't resent it, but I saw that it was happening. You know? These colleges, these laboratories, these companies, they wanna hire people from with different skin color. They really do. And especially black people, they really do. And that goes on today. And so, I never felt like that that was a bad thing. I thought I thought this was, you know, what we had to do. And yet, when I hear about it today, nobody really wants to talk about that. You know? Like because it hasn't actually come to pass that the diversity has got to the point that every that people are satisfied with. But I know from my experience that there's been a lot of us who wanted this diversity to happen and still want it to happen. So I think that that gets kinda left out of the conversation. And that's a good point. When I earlier, I said assuming things, and what you just said, there are a lot of us that want this diversity to happen. Right? And when you hear the things, like, for example, that Meriden and Marcus have shared, it for me because I'm very interested in in the emotionality of all of this. And for me, it's like, okay. Well, they don't want diversity. And so any diversity that we may see is just placation. And that's why we have, depending on your point of view, such slow growth in diversity. But it's good, I mean, number 1, by saying that you're establishing yourself as an ally for racial diversity, and you challenge my assumption that just white particularly white men just don't want us around. Mhmm. I see. Yeah. And I just I think that that's, you know, when you when, Mary, when you talk about the people who scrutinize, the black community and people who come out of there to take the place, in the supreme court, You know, I think that that's a small well, not small, but there's a subset of our country that definitely does that. But I don't think that they're anywhere near a majority. In fact, I think majority is either neutral or wants to see, progress in in diversity. You know? However, there's the political divide. This is so wrapped up in politics at this point, right, that it's hard to untangle the politics, which I think is the most powerful identity in the United States right now, is political identity. And I think it even is more powerful than racial identity at this point in somewhat in some respects. Mhmm. I agree with that. Yeah. What does it feel like, Marcus, to I don't know. I'm trying to imagine if my parents told me I had to be work twice as hard to be half as good. It's not that they didn't put any parameters of the kind of values and character that they wanted to see in me, but I certainly didn't that's not messaging that I heard, when I in terms of how I, you know, experience going out into society. What is that what is that like to feel that to hear that messaging, to feel that messaging on whatever basis, regular basis there it was during your And I have a more specific question. Did you ever come to resent your friends? What friends? The white friends. No. I never came to resent any of my friends because even the level of success that they achieved, I achieved the same or more. So I never resented them for anything. As far as what did it feel like to be taught you have to work twice as hard to get half of what they have, I don't really think it felt like anything. It was normal. Just normal. It was just an understanding. Right? Mhmm. It is what it is. So I don't know how to articulate a specific feeling that it gave me. Yeah. It was just more so this is reality, and you're not gonna be extended the same grace that they are, and this is what you have to do. If you never felt resentment around that? Mm-mm. I would think I would let me I would say that's the same thing for me. I can't think of any resentful feelings. At least not, like, not in that wisdom. And even now, I mean, even though because I resent it. To a certain extent, I've seen it play out in terms of I graduated top of top of my class. That was drama. I mean, literally, there were white parents who went and demanded to see my transcripts and things like that, which are private. You know, all of that mean it was a very, very, like, huge deal at my school. But I would say, you know, now going back, I went to, what, my 25-year reunion, like, right after we could associate after COVID. And, yeah, well, I was top of my class, and I went to Stanford Ebola. I mean, my classmates who did not inherited a lot. I'm talking about, like, board seats at Hanes and things like that where I was just like, this is a bit of what my parents were talking about. Because some of y'all were the c students that I was tutoring and, like, kind of the I worked twice as hard and definitely got half as much because they are sitting very, very pretty, in terms of businesses handed to them, you know, 1,000,000 of dollars in funding handed to them, you know, from, you know, relatives or, you know, networks that their that their parents had and things like that were like, you know, I'm a starter for the bottom. Now I'm here. Yeah. And that reparations. Yeah. We'll get to reparations. I know you got that question, Marcus. But I have another question. It's hard to kinda take over. Like I said, I'm interested in the emotion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've just to share, I haven't been sharing that much because I want wanted to be more about you. But, you know, Mary, when you describe what you just described, I saw the same thing in my in my community, and I it’s kind of because I grew up, I grew up with an idea that we are in a meritocracy, that that, you know, we have opportunity. You know? I know it's not equal, but the idea that we should all have opportunity, and then you work hard to achieve whatever you're gonna achieve in life. And I come from a very affluent area. You know, at 10 years old, we moved to Beverly Hills, right? So like the symbol, right, of affluence in the in the pop culture. And it was hard for me to see people who, like you said, Marin, did not apply themselves in in their lives up through their twenties, but then just got stuff handed to them. And, you know, there's part of me that says, well, listen, you know, I don't know, maybe their parents really strive hard, and they wanted to give to their kids, right, and to give them that opportunity. You know, part of what we do as parents is we strive to be able to provide for our kids so that in some ways it is easier, or they do have more opportunity than we had. But at the same time, there was a feeling of like, I know, I know these kids, like I know what they did for most of their time during their teens and twenties. And I know people who worked really hard, whatever color they may be, you know, skin color, who were not afforded the same kind of opportunities to thrive in life. So I just wanted to share a kind of, you know, that I relate actually to what you said. It got at my heart and my soul a little bit because of the narrative that I grew up with about the United States, and about how it's to live one's live one's life. Landon, do you, you know, you just made a mention about, you know, I don't know if you said that you were actually part of the diversity, like, was it diversity in terms of geographic diversity going to college? Or you were just saying you went to college during a time when diversity was a push? Yeah. Like, were you in an area that where a lot of people went to college? And I don't know. Do you relate at all to the some of the themes that Marcus and Marion shared, given where you grew up from? I'm curious about it. Yeah. I mean, I really relate on a class level to what both of you shared because I also resent, I resented rich white people. Thank you. Yep. Thank you for stating that, Landon. Thank you for stating that. Yeah. And I still do. Okay. Then something great. You still do. There's a little bit in your heart. Yeah. And how did they view you? Well, tell me more, but I also wanna know how did you think they viewed you, or did you know did you have any sense of that? Yeah. I mean, like I said, I didn't have a great, education going up through high school. It was just that wasn't a big focus on our community. You know? It wasn't cool to be a nerd or even a good student. Like, most of us did not wanna be that. So that was the values of the place where I grew up. But, you know, even today, you know, I went to college, from 2,000 to I got an undergrad degree. I got a then I went to get a PhD, and then I did postdoctoral work for 5 years. And this time, we raised a family of 4 kids, my wife and me. And I can tell you we were we were below the poverty line for 16 years in a row. Mhmm. And I didn't, I didn't resent that. I felt like it was the most educational thing I could do for my kids. So I have this very different mindset about what education comprises for kids. And it was never that mommy and daddy are gonna are gonna grease the tracks for you so you can get a great start in life. It's that we're gonna teach you the values that were required for success, but we're not gonna give you, we're not gonna pay for you know, give you a full ride to college and pay for everything for you. You you're gonna learn the values that are required so that you can go out in the world as an adult and have success. And part of that is just that you have to work and be patient, and you also will have to be poor for a period of time, at least, while you try to realize who you are and what goals you want to accomplish in your life. And if you don't have goals, that are academic, that's okay. You know? But, you know, that was always the focus in my family. That was the values that I grew up with. I didn't I still don't like it when we pass down generational wealth to the children when they're when they have not had the opportunity to realize themselves yet. You know? I don't I don't think that's good for American society at all. And because I just think it betrays it's a major lack of education, for the kids when that happens to them. They don't know what it's like to be in, you know, in the poor people's shoes or how they are able to succeed. So that's my experience. Yeah. Resenting white people who are rich and gave their kids everything, I just I still have a difficult time with that, honestly. Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. I share that. I can for I just wanna say something too. I could resonate being a female in the tech industry for, you know, my whole career and being we're having to work a lot. Not twice as hard for half as much, but certainly having to go a step farther almost every time and still being overlooked. I mean, and it not even just being feeling invisible Right. And passed over and you know? Yeah. So I will say that I don't know anyone personally that I grew up with or went to school with or college with that I resent, but I do resent rich white people. I do. I do. And I have a particular problem with paying more in taxes than a millionaire. That just bothers me to my core. Ugh. That just so yes. Yeah. I just, before we transition and Andre, if you can transition us to Landon's question, but, I just wanna to ask. Yeah. Marcus, the reason I asked you that question earlier and you too, Marin, is I don't know. It just felt like and maybe you just don't know different. You haven't you don't you don't get to live a second life to know something to compare it to. But, you know, if I were messaged that twice as good to get half as much, and maybe I got it a little bit from my grandparents coming, you know, who came over as Jews from the holocaust and, you know, emblemize, you know, were the epitome of that kind of a of an ethos. It just feels like a lot of pressure. If I had to walk out, you know, of my house every day and feel like I'm not gonna get grace and I have to be twice as good to get half as much, it just felt to me in my in my being when I heard that it just felt like a lot of pressure. So, you know, but I understand not knowing a different life. Yeah. It looks you know, it's not just the twice as good that we have as much. It is the pressure of if you mess up, they're not gonna give another person who looks like you a shot. And, Susan, I see you nod your head. That could be the same thing for women. That can be, you know, same definitely a thing for, you know, as a black person. It's like all eyes on you. And the moment that you don't hit quarterly profits or the moment that, you know, you make that, you know, honest mistake, it's a, see, you know, we shouldn't have, you know, put a woman in this position or see, this would happen to me focus on diversity or, you know, whatever kind of the negative messaging is there. So if you feel the pressure not just for your personal aspirations, but you feel the pressure as a representative of a community who's coming who who's going to have a shot at that potentially in the future. That's what you are that what you're Absolutely. Absolutely. Andre, you're about to say something. Yes. Thank you, Todd. Well, I was I was I was about to say so, you know, like I said, I'm interested in the emotionality of all of this. And you we talk about pressure and everything that you guys have shared, and that's why your home environment is really important in having that support. And what I was gonna say, 2 things are, think of having that pressure, and your mother is trying to raise 2 younger children. So for me, I had to internalize a lot of that. And just like I mean, you wanna know what I learned about black people? I learned I have to rely on myself. Flat out, full stop. And you'll have to talk to my mother about the story, but she'll corroborate it. The things that I've achieved in my life, that's number 1. And then number 2, yeah, I would say one of the most intimate things that we all experience entertainment is completely emblematic of, you know, having to carry the weight of the collective on your shoulders. I mean, to me, it seems like we have more movies being directed by women than ever in Hollywood now. And I was reading an article about, you know, the pressure it was under for Patty Jenkins to get Wonder Woman right. And not only from that, did you have a sequel that was done from Wonder Woman. Right? And it just made me think that, you know, whether you like it or not, you were put in the life circumstances you're put in, and you just have to deal with it. And maybe that's me talking about the whole rely on yourself, but I just want the world to know that that is stressful. It really is. And then when you slow down after you've gotten to some level of success, for me, that's when all the emotions of it, and that's why I use the word resent. The emotions of it start hitting home, and you're like, wait. Because when you see here about the to the easier time that other people had, and you're like, I had to do all of that just to arrive in the same place or to achieve more, like, to me, there's no other word for it. Resent. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I kinda understand that, Andre. I just never viewed it in that light, and maybe that's one of the advantages of my background. You know? Mhmm. I felt like I wanted to go on a journey, and it was a journey of self-discovery. You know? I didn't really care how long it took, and I thought that if I have my kids and we go on this journey together, then this is a journey of self-discovery for all of us. They're gonna see how we're poor. Like, we never made more than 30,000 a year. There were 6 of us in a in a single, 3-bedroom apartment unit. And, you know, I thought that this was this was true education for our kids. And, you know, so I kind of relished that opportunity. And until I yeah. After a while, yeah, I started to get old. And I connect with that, and I'll tell you why. Because I was, I'm just gonna be explicit. I was thinking about the backgrounds of Meron and Todd. I really was. And feelings of resentment came up. And then I thought so and I thought to myself, I said, you know what, Andre? That if you had to choose it all of all again, I would do it no differently, because I like the person that it made me. I like who I became out of out of all of that. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us atguestshealingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. I kinda mentioned what, you know, the idealized history looked like for a person in a typical conservative area, I would say. And I wanted to know, you know, how do you guys view United States history? You know, there's, you know, some people are really bitter about it. Some people just have this religious viewpoint that it's straight from God's hand, and then there's all the mess in between. And so how do you think about it? And where do you draw strength from your history, your story, and what values and character came out of it? I also am very wary when, when people talk about, particularly Black people and the victimhood narrative and everything like that. And I say, no, no, no, no, no. I was like, well, we are disincentive slaves. We are not victims. We are victors. You know, if anything, I look back on the fact that, you know, 7, 8 generations ago, my family was bought off the coast of Houston to be where we are today and to have survived Jim Crow. And my family, we have a lot of sorts I mean, my uncle accidentally drinking out of, like, a whites only fountain and my great grandfather having to sit up with a shotgun waiting for the Klan. Like, those sorts of, like, those sorts of stories to come to, like, where we are is one of unbelievable triumph, unbelievable pride, unbelievable faith. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.