How Should America's Founding Be Judged Given Its Stand On Race?

It's really hard for me to fathom that in the course of living and interacting with one another, even in a subjugated way, that you just don't have those basic human experiences where you look at the sight of a baby who happens to have skin. God that I hear where you're going and let me stop you right there. I'm sorry. That rarely happened on a plantation and mayor and cosign if you if you like. That where they let, they allowed black children to run around buck naked. There's one of the reasons that they say black some black people live high on the hog. You wanna know why we eat chitlins? Because we were thrown entrails and feet and ears. And like Maren said, we were victors. We took what was unhealthy and waste to the white man and turned it into a culture and into a and into a national anthem and a hymn. Landon, what do you what do you I'm just really curious about this question that Andre raises. How much do you think people genuinely felt that black people were just not fully human versus how many just rationalized it that way? What is your what is your sense of how people experienced it? And I'll tell you why I asked in a second, but I I'd really love to know your answer. Yeah. I think it's it was primarily religious determined back then, and the religious narratives around race, I think, were pretty clear cut, and those have been evolved over time to enslave black people and to, Christians. What what's that? I said Christians. Yeah. Exactly. I think that those I mean, it didn't start out like that, but I think that that you add religious narratives to your religious narratives over time, and it becomes okay and becomes gospel. It becomes by God, and that is your absolute reality if you are a religious person. I can say this because I grew up as a religious person. And so that reality is set in a lot of ways unless you break, really powerful bonds with your community. So that reality is communal enforced. It is set when you're very young indoctrination. Mhmm. And so I can say, I think that a lot of them were just completely blind because that was the indoctrination that they got. Now that doesn't mean that there's not 10% of their brain that says this kind of this is uncomfortable. But I don't think it was enough to break those communal bonds that they formed and that kept them, as part of the group. You know? So you got the authority of God, and who's gonna question the authority of God as taught. Right? And then you have the communal bonds and what you'd be giving up to be a naysayer, to question. And you think that those forces kinda drive people's minds to just accept the reality that they're given is what I'm hearing from you. I think that that's the very the most basic human experience. And for a lot of that's how our brains work. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Not everybody. And I think that that was definitely enforced back then. Yeah. I just and I struggle. And I struggle. And it's because of I know so much British royal history, and Mara knows this. Because the crown is endowed by the authority of God. You'll see that on May 6th when the current king is invested in his role. So if the authority of God is setting this order of the races, the authority of God doesn't apply to set the order of the cast such that you would want to break from your king, King George the third? Yeah. I think that there was a pretty radical idea back then. That was a radical one radical idea that, but they did not take on other radical ideas at the same time. I accept that. That's a great way to respond to me. I accept that. Yeah. What I struggle with and, you know, I don't know enough about the kinda on the ground realities of, you know, on the plantation, right, and the interaction between slaves and slave owners. But, you know, I shared something with Andre the other day. So we so my wife and I are fostering. And it's hard because I know that I'm just seeing through the lens of how I grew up and who I am now looking back. So I will totally own the fact that I can't truly get in the mind of someone like you're talking about, Landon. Right? Right. That I have the ability to be where I am in history. Right? At the same time so we're fostering. It just so happens that who the child who got placed with us, will try to get through this, is, is black. Okay? So we have a black foster daughter. We didn't ask for it. That if you believe in the heavens above or whatever you may think I do. And that was God. And it's so hard for me to fathom that you could look at a at a black child in particular and not just think they're just a child. That in the course of living and interacting with one another, even in a subjugated way, subordinate, you know, superior way, that you just don't have those basic human experiences where you look at the sight of a baby who happens to affect the skin. God, then I hear where you're going, and let me stop you right there. I'm sorry. That rarely happened on a plantation in Marin cosign if you if you like. That where they let, they allowed black children to run around buck naked. There's one of the reasons that they say black, some black people live high on the hog. You wanna know why we eat chitlins? Because we were thrown entrails and feet and ears. And like Maren said, we were victors. We took what was unhealthy and waste to the white man and turned it into a culture and into a and into a national anthem and a hymn. I hear what you're saying, and I accept all of that, but that rarely happened in Plantation Life. Interactions rarely happen. That's I and I'm really into the remnants of that show today. What's that? I also wanna say that, Todd, a lot of what you are sharing is why there needs to be more diversity. Like, you're able to see the humanity and people when you're up close. Many of the times, just using again here living here in Chicago, you know, as an You're on mute. Oops. Sorry. I sent my mute. Here in Chicago, using that as an example, many times we hear, you know, the comments made about black kids, quote, unquote. It's by people who are living way up in the northern suburbs, who do not interact with these black kids, except maybe they might see their kid play against them in a football game or something like that. So there it's really easy to other people who are at a distance. Right? And it also can same thing can happen here vice versa. I mean, since moving to the south side of the city, like, I've definitely interacted with a lot of black people down here who, with the exception of going to work downtown, they don't really interact with white people. So, again, it's easy to do a lot of the othering. And so many times when you hear people say, why does diversity matter? Why does diversity matter? You know, and they're trying to get this, you know, to this quantitative ROI or, you know, whether it's, you know, for a business or, like, at a university. Like, oh, it's just about learning, you know, reading, writing, and arithmetic. Like, no. Like, the value of those sorts of interactions is because we are able to see the humanity in everyone. Like, those black kids are more than just the black kids from the south side who are unruly. When you interact with them, it'd be like, these are just kids. You know? That So, Andre, your so, Andre, your feeling is that is that that folks white folks could succumb to the to this kind of narrative and the social pressures as Landon shared it because partially because they didn't get to have those human moments with each other, it sounds like. Well, then during slave times, it was deliberately avoided. Right? You're dealing you're dealing with servants. Like, the things I'm telling you about slavery have been documented. This is all first Yeah. No. Right? Yeah. But in and to speak to speed that up to modern day, I agree with I'm sitting on the fence with both of you, right, with you and Maren, and that it's very easy for 1 to be comfortable in their own bubble, and then you just and it's easy to otherwise because you just don't make any attempt to be outside of that bubble, which for me, you know, I mean, we're at some point, we are going to transition to policing, but I also have to wonder when people are working in neighborhoods they don't even live in and quote, unquote policing, whatever that looks like for the cop, people that they don't know, then is that othering happen even more heightened in a job that's already stressful. And so what I'm number 1, making a link from the past to present day and saying that the, you know, those circumstances are still manifesting themselves. They're not completely gone. And I also wanna educate that, you know, part of the othering was making sure from slave times to know that black people go without. And I'm saying go without some sort of basic things. And to circle that back to with the founding of the country is you knew that this crown was trying to make you go without, right, taxes and whatnot, and it never occurred to you that this same sort of strive for liberty would want to be adopted by others who are occupying this land, which you came to from somewhere else. Right. I just find all of that absolutely incredible. And let me just also say, like, one thing, like, not to take away from the focus of race. A lot of what Andre is saying in a lot of this conversation, I think actually needs to happen on a bigger scale around socioeconomic class. I think there are a lot of huge, like, discussions and otherisms and assumptions that people make about the way that quote unquote the other half lives. You know, I mean, I believe this world would be a different place if rich people and poor people traded places for, like, a week. Right? And you really know what it's like, you know, for some people who I mean, I can say even again, what I see here living on the south side. I know, like, when you get, like, 4 or 5 blocks south of me, you get into straight up like food deserts. Right? And so it's easy when you live on north side and there's a whole foods every 4 blocks to say, you know, hey. Why are those poor people wasting their money on McDonald's and getting fat and they're begging for health care? Like, no. Like, I live, like, next to the, like, last Whole Foods for, like, 4 miles. Yeah. You know, so everything. And so again, it just kind of gets into the whole othering and making assumptions of groups of people that we are taught are taking from us. So, Maryann, Susan asked you kind of a question, and I I'm really curious to make sure I have an understanding of or, you know, of your response to something that Susan shared. When you say when has race not been a thing, so kinda back to this educating and history. When you say that it hasn't, when has it not been a thing, is your hope that, but then Susan, clearly, and Susan will hear kind of what your concerns are. Your concern was, you know, does everything have to be through the lens of race, right? And I guess I'm trying to understand the tension there. Do you just want it to be the case that as history is taught, that it's not neglected, that there were racial challenges, that race played a role in people's lives throughout history, that there's not like these gaps in time. Like, should we see everything through the role the lens of race, or should we just acknowledge that race was never not a thing and there were people who were affected by that fact at every point in history? Is that is that what you're going for, or is that what you hope for? What would be your aspiration in the way that we learn the black experience or learn history? Right? Is it always a racial lens, or is it, again, just let's learn the full history as it's unfolded over time and not just the highlights? I'm trying to understand kinda where your hopes are and where you're where you're coming from on that. Like, the first thing that came to mind when you started sharing your question was, like, I hate answering your question with a question, which is why I was just Do it. That's okay. I was maybe I wasn't clear enough. Is I was thinking of imagine if someone told you to share your story or to walk through your life, but you can't come at it from the lens of a man. Mhmm. You can't come at it from the lens of being Jewish. Mhmm. That or to say, Susan, say, Susan, think about, like, everything that goes on like in your life or has gone on in your life now. Take try to take away that lens of you being a woman. This is very, very, very difficult. And again, it's not that it's bad. It's just about being aware of it all. Because when you get outside of even, like, basic facts, like the sky is blue and 2 plus 2 equals 4, there's pretty much that there's pretty much bias to everything, and it's because we are all coming at life from a different lens. Right? And so I oftentimes say, like, I just don't know if it's possible or if you're when people put things out there of, like, why does everything have to be about race? That oftentimes is, like, as a person who's part of a marginalized race, what do you mean? Like, that's asking me to walk through life and be like, Maren, like, don't see it from the lens of being black. Like, what? Like, that's just that just is. Right? Now, like, that might mean I land on, or I view a certain scenario, or I view an aspect of history or something like that different from Landon or different from even Marcus being a black woman versus a black man, whatever. But it doesn't necessarily mean either one of us is quote, unquote right or wrong. It's just different perspectives. And I think some of the conversations we've been even having about, like the way history is taught and things like that. Like I think a lot of times people forget, especially in in circles of higher education and those who write textbooks and things like that. It is perfectly, perfectly normal for aspects of history to be debated for that reason. Right? Like, when people are acting like, oh, the 16/19 project, other academics disagree with it, that happens with every history book. Like, you can pick any, like, history book and someone is going to have a different perspective on it, and it's very normal for academics to debate and discuss. And again, it's just we come at it from a different lens, and we oftentimes come at it from a lens through which is part of our core identity that is shaping the way that we are being treated. Right? So I don't think I'm for me, I think it's just about honoring and listening to all those different perspectives without judging or gaslighting. Right? Even if you want it included. You want that perspective It's just about including it. But not making it the necessary the central theme in every at every point in time, but that there could be that lens because you experienced that lens, Maren. And so if you don't include that lens, then your part or, you know, the way you see history or the way history has maybe affected you gets left out. And that's exactly or it's not saying oh, it's just saying that, like, there's no one lens that is the lens and all other lenses are wrong. Which is why I think that we get into when discussing history. It's like, you have one group that's saying it is the lens of, like, the forefathers, white male landowners. And anyone else who, like, had a different perspective, you're wrong, and you're not patriotic, and you're disrespectful. No. That just kind of was the way that it was. Right? And so I think we have to start looking at it from that perspective rather than it's just one voice. And if your voice or perspective disagrees, you're wrong. I really, I really like that. You know, I think that that's, like, maybe part of the answer to the way forward is that you think of it and not as a series of lenses, and you intertwine them to cover the breadth of this incredibly massive, history. Right? Yeah. I totally agree with you on that. I think that that's one way to put it to people that helps them understand rather than read immediate defensiveness. You know? Mhmm. Susan, you had an initial concern when we started talking about this kind of how do you what was that concern, and how do you experience what Marin said? And then I'd also like to hear Marcus because I know you have kind of a perspective of it sounds like sometimes you have a perspective of not focusing so much on race. And how do you what's your what's your take on it? But maybe we can start with Susan. I just like the way you guys articulated that. I think it's a little clearer to me because I we were miscommunicating and using the term lens. I was thinking that meant put race at the fore at the very forefront of every single lesson that you teach. Okay. You know, this is a but you're but you're saying I like the way Landon rephrased it and it a bit of what Maren said and Todd, and I love the way you guys all articulated it. It's a lot more nuanced than that, and I and I and I appreciate that. And what was the concern originally when you first kind of took that in as race being at the center? What was that initial concern about? Like, what were you feeling or thinking? I think I was representing the concern of people who are on one far side saying, you know, race should be part of every single thing we teach, even, like, the sky is blue. Okay. How is that a racial thing? That that's one extreme or the other extreme, let's there's no race in anything. Let's erase it from everything and be color blind. The I was just representing those two things as being extremes, whereas I don't like either one of those. So, I think the way you guys articulated it is much better. I think that the right thing is somewhere in between there. But, yeah, it's I think the wording was maybe the wording was throwing me off. Got it. Marcus, what about you? What is your sense of how the role of the racial lens in how we kinda teach about our history and think about ourselves over time? No. I think Barron's summation of that was absolutely on point. Black history is American history. And I think I think a good approach would be to teach history from an aspect of this is where we are now. And, yes, we have this. And, like you said, yes, there are historically black colleges and universities. And, yes, there are historical black Greek letter organizations. And, yes, there's a black national anthem. But had it not been for, then these things wouldn't exist. And so you can encompass that all into American history and just give a timeline and lay it all out. I think that would be great. To understand the roots of it so that there's an understanding of why there might be this need or why these would have developed not meaning to be exclude exclusionary or, you know, to separate themselves from America, but they were separated. Right. Yeah. In the context of historically black colleges, well, black people couldn't go to predominantly white institutions. So in this year, this historical black college was founded, and then you had all these other colleges that subsequently followed. Well, in this year, blacks were allowed to attend these universities. And this year, the historically black colleges opened to white people or the black national anthem. This was a form that was written. It was arranged into a song. And had it not been for this, then there would be no anthem. It's really not per se an anthem. It's more so a rallying cry if you really pay attention to the words to be included. It's a cry for help, really, looking at the past and what hope and faith has taught us. So just looking at why these things exist, and this is where we are now. I think that would be a good starting point. So A good framework by which to apply because you a learning to history. Instead of, like, most things, we take a headline, and we run with it, but we never really look at the meat of the situation or the text. You'll look at the headline of a book and you'll automatically assume, nah, it's good. It's bad. But you never even read the content of it. So right. I mean, I can say I mean, again, obviously, with not defense slavery for a whole slew of reasons. But having read again, you know, history of what was happening before and during the civil war from the lenses of various groups, especially socioeconomically, like, I would it finished some place to be like, wow. Like, poor white men got screwed. Like, you know, tell and, again, it's just a, like, a completely different lens where it's like, okay. Now I understand why they had some of the attitudes or took some of the actions that they did. And it, you know, it allows for seeing that humanity in everyone. Again, we are all very, very flawed. But, you know, again, there's more than one story to be told. Yeah. I just think it's the, it's how you frame it. It's like, this is added to you know, it's not one overshadowing the others. It's not good or bad. You know, it's, I think that it's just about the narrative is people interpret. If you have black history, it may overshadow our history, and it will solely our history. And therefore, we are you know, we feel immediately defensive about it. Right? It doesn't have you represent what you said represents a better way. Right? But how do you make that? It's just very tiny distinction, and we're talking about the same kind of material either way, but it's how it's interpreted on the on the part of the person who's receiving it. Right? It can be in breed immediate resentments and defensiveness, or it can be like, oh, yeah. It can be inclusive and, you know, it seems like a small distinction, for the same history. It's just how you presented and look at it. Right? Yeah. I think it's more so too about just an acknowledgment of what was. I know Andre brought up the 4th of July earlier. And so do you and Susan even know what Juneteenth is? Yeah. I do because it's, you know, it's on the national stage now. Right? So yeah. Yeah. Only in the last, like, 2 years or so did I know what that was. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. Would you, being a police officer, would you give the talk to your kids about how would you worry about some police officer not showing using reasonable use of force? And would you worry it worry about it more because your child would be black? Like, would that be a consideration for you? Honestly speaking, yes. I would probably give my child that talk. Okay. But I would also give them the talk that they are to be respectful. Yeah. That they will go out the same as my mom and dad did. You act like you have some home training, and you represent this household accordingly and you represent it well and you do not bring shame to the family. But, yes, I would have to talk with them. And I guess how so there's the broader question that Maren asked just about the approach of police regardless of the color of the victim. Right? Or perpetrator depending on how you look at it. Right? Or what the case is. And I guess, what do you think? It seems sometimes and I whether or not it happens more, the fact that it happens means it's an issue to improve, meaning unreasonable use of force. Right? Absolutely. What do you what do you think is behind the instinct in those cases when it seems like the action of a civilian leads to a level of force that that that doesn't seem equivalent to the potential harm that could exist. But I don't know what it's like to be a cop, so I don't know if there's an if there's a quickness because of a fear or I don't really know what it's what it's like. But in those cases, what? And then how does that play out differentially in your mind? Because you would have the talk based on race. What's your what's your sense of it as a as a cop? To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next