”Black” and ”White”: Should We Identify with the Color of Our Skin?

I talked in the last episode of having a very weak connection if almost no connection to whiteness as an identity of myself. Right? Mhmm. And I hear you that people perceive me that way, and then that comes with certain things. In your ideal world, if you can wave a magic wand about the way things are, would you identify with your color? In this conversation, we've talked about kind of a black way of being and a white way of being, but then we also say, well, maybe that's not true. No. No. No. No. Let no. No. Let's go deep in that. So yes. But only on the surface because you pointed it out. I think as human beings, we're all the same. But there is a there is a deliberate there's a there's a deliberate way that white people are presented in such a way that when it's juxtaposed to black people, they're held they seem to be, of a higher standard. Yeah. And what I would It's not real. It's not real whatsoever. But it is but that's how images are put out there. Yeah. And I would just say the opposite too, which is what you said where black people are presented in a certain way that Yes. Associations. And so that has in some sense become blackified, if I if that's even a word. Right? And so then there needs to be sensitivity around how you show up. Mhmm. What you just said, though, is exactly kind of where I wanted to go. We talked about cultural and, like, ways of showing up and reputation and social acceptance and professional acceptance. And I kinda wanted to take a step back or a step a step up around the terminologies of black and white more generally, because you talked in the in the last in the commentary on the last the reflections on in the la on the last episode, you talked about black education as you put it. Right? This idea of, like, I'm black and I'm proud and, James Brown. Yeah. Like, the kind of owning of the identity. Say it loud. Mhmm. Would what be your like, if you could wave a magic wand, and I oh, let's step back again and just repeat one other thing you said, which is you had conversations with your friends about what race you would be if you could choose. Right? And you talked about how that's in a very emotional thing where that general topic of identity is really emotional because you would still be black because it's important. It's helped you become who you are, and you're happy about who you are. So I've even said that with the context between the two of us. I told my best friend, I said, knowing the fullness of our relationship, including all the episodes we filmed for the show, If I had to choose Todd's life or mine, I'd still choose my own. Yeah. And so here's the question, I guess, that I would have around identity because I talked in the last episode of having a very weak connection, if almost no connection to whiteness as an identity of myself. Right? Mhmm. And I hear you that people perceive me that way, and then that comes with certain things. In your ideal world, if you can wave a magic wand about the way things are, would you identify with your color? Like, would that even be an identity? Okay. So that's 2 different things. So you're the premise the assertion there is that color equals race, and that's not necessarily true. Because they're because I get mistaken for all kinds of races all the time. Yeah. So there are plenty of people who look like me that are not of the African diaspora. Yeah. And there are plenty of people who do. So I'll answer the question with if I could wage or waive a one, would I identify with the black race? For me, I can't answer that question. It's a bit self-indulgent because there is just no alternate reality. But to indulge, I don't see why I wouldn't because African cultures have been and I because I've done the ancestry DNA, I know which African cultures I'm approximately a part of, like, you know, approximately. And they're just as splendorous and wonderful and part of world history as anything else. So I wouldn't wanna be anything else because I do already come from something great, but so does everyone else in the world. We all come from something great. And I like, I really love history, and I really am bold over I was I've been literally crying all weekend watching these pride movies because I've been watching pride movies from all over the world, like, Germany and Holland and China and everything. You know, and it's just the world's people are so beautiful, and they want the same thing. And we all come from something that's wonderful and splendorous, but maybe sometimes for whatever intention got perverted and sold as different than what it really was in its soul and at its core. And that's unfortunate. But that gives us work to do as human beings. We have to find our way back to that splendor and seeing the splendor in one another. So I hear you on connecting with kind of where your heritage came from. I guess my question is specifically around color itself. Right? Like, why would it not be I come from some part of Africa? Right? Why would it be in the ideal world? Why would it be I'm identifying as black? Right? Why would it not be I have this heritage I have this heritage that I come from. You know? Just think about to compare it to my example, it's not that I have the strongest Jewish identity related, you know, relative to other people in the Jewish community, but I would certainly be Jewish first before white or, Californian first. It's funny that you say that. Californian even first before I've often said I'd be gay first before black. Not often. I've had yeah. I would. Yeah. I would. But to answer your question for all of us, if I could wave 1, then our color should matter at all. Okay. Like, we just need wave a wand. So why do you think the motivation is then behind identifying? So if the ideal is we don't call ourselves black people, white people Mhmm. Or otherwise Mhmm. Brown people, other colors that have been used in history, red, yellow. Right? Which are not currently owned. Right? Why what then? If that's not the ideal, what do you think the motivation is behind identifying? I have an answer for you because it was an easy way for, how would you say, imperialists to segregate people. And so the so the motivation for having to identify around your color came for me, comes out of imperial machinations in the world. So because it's easy for, you know, empires to segregate people by color and say, with these people who are this color do this, with these people that color do that, then now when you're trying to reverse the impact or the negative impact of having been part of an empire, however you came into that being of being part of the empire, then you, you it's natural to organize yourself in that same way. So it's like your plan of attack essentially is a mirror of what was used to oppress you. Yeah. So what do you think? Let me ask it in a reverse way. I understand that. So there were folks back in the day that separated people based on color. They used it as a justification for domination of some kind, and there's some sort of residual history of that as well of the way that we see one another. And so that in some way factors into why own yourself as a black person. I'm still trying to understand why that leads to it. Like, what do you think would happen if you didn't identify as black? Well, then how do you call it? I mean, not collective bargain is not the right word, but if you do, like, you need strength in numbers. So how do you get rights? How do you triumph over the imperialist or whatever the oppressive, you know, other quote, unquote is if you have people who are floating in and out of in and out of the definition. Like, your strength in numbers gives voice. And so that's why you have to do it. So for me, like and we can even outside of race being gay, one of the conversations that always comes up during pride is coming out. And I always tell gay men, I said, I don't judge, you know, your journey and your path. But for me, it was important to come out to friends and family in the world in employer to set to stand up and be counted. So an analogy and an hour, you know, analogy with my race. It was up to I publicly self-identify as black because it's important for me to stand up and be counted. And, also, within my own, you know, the diversity of your own black community to stand up and be counted as the way I show up or I interpret being a black American is for me. Stand up and be counted is important because it does what? Well, number 1, it gives you visibility. And visibility raises awareness, and awareness raises consciousness. I'm not saying awareness equal equates to immediate change, but it raises consciousness. And when our consciousness when our consciousness is elevated, then it gives us new questions to consider that contribute to our worldview. And when our worldview is challenged, we have a choice. Either we can retreat into what we know, either we challenge it right back, or we can choose to integrate this as a piece of knowledge to build a broader scope in the world for ourselves. So I heard 2 things of why you think it's important to identify as black as your race. One is, to create some sort of community that can help one another to change the things that affect you organically in the day. Right? And also, again, for people who aren't black. Because there are people I mean, there are people just like the being gay who legitimately don't have many reactions with black people. And they may have questions, notions, etcetera. And they may have a not have a genuine, respectful curiosity. And when someone you stand up and be counted, it's a way of saying to the world, I'm here. And because this has really happened to me with being gay over the years. Like, where people, like, you know, we're very curious about gay men and how we show up and live our lives, etcetera. And I was always willing to answer those questions, but they wouldn't have they wouldn't have had me as a resource had I not been out. Yeah. So that was the second thing. So the first thing is kind of the forming of a community that can help one another, inform one another as you and your friends do advocate for one another as it relates to the common challenges that you experience or the common ways in which you want things to change to create more equity and whatnot. The second way was being a representative of that group in some way that might inform others in the population that might change stereotypes in the population. And for me, that's another reason why it's important for me to be to be fully married to the man I'm with. It's another way of standing up and being counted. Mhmm. What would you say if someone said to you, why not consider yourself a human first, an American first? I respect that. But I do. I respect that, but that is not as politically impactful as taking the label that other people have put upon me and turning it into what's the month? A source of pride. Mhmm. That's why it's called pride. Mhmm. That's why it's called pride. Pride. And I'm proud to be black. I'm proud to be from a working-class black community even when I'm bringing the tilly teddy. I'm proud. And I'm proud to be gay. When the Another man. When the black community is diverse. Right? And we've talked about that before, there's different ways of showing up as a black person. There are different ideas within, the black community. What does it then mean to be proud of being black? Right? Like, what are what is the pride about? If but what is Jewish pride about for you? See, I don't really resonate with I mean, I'm proud You've had verbiage Jewish pride? Yeah. I don't. And then when we've talked about the idea of white pride, like, I can't encapsulate anything as being white. There are people who try to do that, right? There are people who try to say these technologies and these social systems, democracy and whatnot, you know, were, you know, spawned by white dominated populations. We should be proud of that, right? There are people who try to do that, and, you know, we can go into why that's, you know I can answer your question. Unwarranted sentiment, but there's nothing that I can pinpoint just to finish this thought. There's nothing that I can pinpoint, and there are people who are who are proud about being Jewish, and that and they, you know, define certain things as being Jewish to be proud about. I guess I always it's here's where I here's where I come from, and then and then I'd like to hear what your thoughts are as it relates to being black and feeling proud. If someone were to put me into 2 communities, they would be white and Jewish. Right? Both of those communities, white certainly, and Jewish in its own way, have had elements of their teachings in certain circles that were based on exclusivity. Right? Whites, we kind of clearly know about with regard to white supremacy. Jews with regard to who the chosen people are when it comes to spiritual, the spiritual leaders. Right? And I guess I'm always hesitant around the idea of pride related to race and ethnicity because whatever it seems to me that whatever one would be proud of would also be elements of other races and ethnicities. And so why are we not just proud in the expressions of our humanity that we that we show in the world? Like, I'm proud. You're proud. Because we're not there yet. No. No. You're real sweet. I wasn't lucky woman. You're a real sweet dude. Don't explain to me, bro. Explain to me why Human consciousness there isn’t yet. But it would like that to be the case. Oh, but also feel, like, being proud of being black and expressing that shows people, hey. That it's not our identity. Else. Mhmm. Okay. And, and attributing it to yourself as a black person is saying a black person can be this way, different than what your stereotypes are. Is that you want it to be okay. So the idea is attributing it to being black to push against the ways in which blacks are prejudiced, discriminated against, stereotyped. And so for me for me personally, when it what my definition of black pride it's so interesting that Juneteenth is during pride. And that's not lost on many, many, many of us who are black and gay. But for me, black pride I'll tell you a slight story. So I have always loved the song Proud Mary, and I know it's originated with CCR, But, of course, everyone knows Tina's version. Right? And I love Tina Turner and often sing her when I get drunk. But, you know, the lyrics of that song, especially when he's talking about the big will keeps on turning and proud Mary keeps on burning, leaving a job in the city. And the way the forest was, in my opinion, with which Tina sings that song speaks to an intrepidness in the human spirit. Right? And that's one thing that black people have had to try to do and gay people too, if you really wanted to point it out, soldier on. So for me, black pride is, like I said, doing what you can to just soldier on. And even that soldiering may be minute. So you may only have to take a baby step today, but you could run a mile tomorrow. And as long as you just have that belief and you just have that spirit at your core, you will be alright. And I've seen that in my family. I've seen that with my grandparents, with my family, you know, with my parents. You know, you to me, that's what black pride is, is that that intrepidness of spirit. And I know other races have that and other races have been through many atrocities. I don't wanna I don't wanna take away from that. Yeah. But I'm not a part of those races. I'm part of me. And when you asked me, why are you proud to be black? And I said, it's because of that spirit. It's Yeah. Because woo. And so many times, so many times when we could have just, you know, jumped into the river, we stayed on the boat. Yeah. And we kept rolling on the river to use the Yeah. The primary analogy. Why do you think your dad wanted you and your siblings to what was it that he had you say? I'm black and I'm say it loud. I'm black and I'm black and I'm proud. Is that Well, that happened. Yes. So to give you a bit of context, I was older, so I've had a disconnected relationship with my father. And I remember that particular experience when I was older, like, in teen years, and sitting around with my younger siblings, and I was there for a visit. You know, you go visit your dad when your parents are separated. For him, I can't speak to his motivation, but what he communicated to me in his lifetime, he's now deceased, communicated to me in his lifetime that it was important for us to have a sense of gravity, of not only what we've been through, but also what we're capable of. And no one that and no one can take any of that away from you. So no matter how a white person treats you or says anything to you or whatever, like, no one can take the very essence of you away. And the very essence of you be at least in the physical manifestation of yourself is that you are black. Many people are gonna look at you and they're gonna see, quote, unquote, black person, African American, whatever. And with that, that's a part of the other the message from him. They're gonna bring all sorts of opinions and expectations of you. And it would you have to say, irrespective of all of those things, is that I'm the best of myself and I'm proud of it. So call me whatever, you know, negative thing you want, but I'm the best of myself and I'm proud of it. And, also, no one should be not proud of their journey, and part of their journey part of your journey as a black person is being black and at least from a peripheral perspective, having to endure some of the things that black people endured. I mean, Jim Crow laws apply to everybody who is black. Like, you were whether you wanted to be a part of it or not, you were a part of it if you looked like you were part of the African diaspora. Yeah. Yeah. That's all making sense. So you're perceived in a certain way. You, there's associations that come along with defining your others defining you as a black person, and so I hear 4 things now around this. One is the collective part of it, the building of community, like we're in it together. And the way to define the way you are together is, you know, with different complexions, of course, being black. Second is a sense of resilience that you mentioned, which is, like, kind of remembering the challenges you've been through and being proud of the way those challenges are taken on. And then the 3rd 4th are kind of education processes. 1 is education. Sounds like almost educating yourself. Like, you're going to have so many people throw negative associations your way. You remember who you are. You remember? Yes. Yes. You remember you're all these positive things, not the things they try to tell you are. And then there's the last one, which is representing those positive things and educating others out of their stereotypes. All of that completely makes sense. You know, I don't I don't really, it's hard for me to go there necessarily, for the reasons I told you. But at the same time, I do I do understand it. I mean, over 6,000,000 Jews were killed in the holocaust. And so the way that that they as a community owning that heritage, because it's the heritage based on which they were persecuted and saying, we persisted. Like, look, we rose again, right, in the sense of, you know, succeeding and aspiring and surviving. In in fact, we, you know, started a, you know, a state for ourselves. Like, there's ways in which we pushed back from this and survived and thrived. And so, you know, it's hard for me in some sense to identify that exclusively. And I know it doesn't have to be exclusive, but sometimes it feels exclusive for me to say that's something for Jews to be proud of because I feel like it's something for a lot of people to be proud of who have hit challenges. Yeah. But the truth is, you know, as you stated, people were persecuted because of the fact they were Jewish, and so the pride is in pushing back against that that force, right? And so I guess I guess I guess you yeah. I guess I can own that a little bit more, and I and I certainly understand it more? I mean, I felt it very much with my It's pride month, Todd. It's pride. It's pride to you. It's being pride in all of the dimensions of your life, not only your race, your sexual orientation, your Yeah. You know, pride. Yeah. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. You talk a lot about this idea of the psychology of ownership. What how do you think that materializes across the white population? So let's ask a really specific question. I am speculative. Justification. A justification. You think I carry around a feeling of ownership over black people? To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the video.