Should Black Americans Get Reparations For Past Racial Wrongs?

How do you deal with the tension with that tension of more opportunity than the past and, you know, generations of the black community in the past have gotten you to where you are, but yet still there's disadvantage. What what's your sense of how to deal with that tension and put the past more in the past? I think we each bear the responsibility just to make a conscious decision and effort to reach common ground. And in order to do so, you're gonna have to listen to the other person's perspective or point of view. You can't just talk to express yourself. You have to be willing to listen and understand. Don't listen to respond. Listen to reach a genuine understanding so that you can get to that common ground. Is part of that common ground an economic acknowledgment of what happened to our forefathers? In terms of reparations? Call it whatever word you wanna use. As Andre mentions, you know, these are complex topics. And when I look at, you know, any person, especially young a young person, a young black man, young white woman, whatever, like, they they're from the very conception in the womb of their mothers, up through pregnancy and childhood, through their family situation, through their community situation, through their religious, through their educational you know, they're being shaped, right, by all these dimensions, especially by our American culture as well, right, by the past, by people's, biases. So all of us, you know, are shaped in that way, but how, therefore, do we look at, you know, the each individual and especially black individual? And how do we, start to, number 1, reduce the disparities that we see? What's the most constructive way? It's not about the narratives or make us defend our anger or anything. How do we actually get to the very base of the problem and move together as a nation, of us to help that situation, you know, to help the black community from the very conception up through adulthood. You know? What's what are your guys' thoughts on that? Yeah. And it was just to kinda add an extra layer, if I if I may, Landon, there was kinda like, what how do we put the past behind us to focus on future? That's true. Right? Yeah. So it's about focusing on us now and trying to move forward together in marshaling all our resources in the way that that puts the path? How do we move forward together and find some unities together, do you think? And, Susan, do you wanna ask? Having conversations like this. I mean, because I think we don't have them enough cross identity lines, racial lines, gender lines, religious lines, everything of that sort. Yes. Class lines. And I think when we do that, we get to that, you know, at our core, we're all humans and we want the same things. We want good schools for our kids. We want safe neighborhoods, cigarette weapons. Like, we're disagreeing on how to get there. Right? And that, you know, that comes from our different perspectives and experiences and all of that. But I think there's an element of humanity that we are missing out on or experiencing the humanity of one another, because we're not having these sorts of conversations outside of our own little bubbles. Right? I think when you're able, you know, Landon, to your point, go beyond seeing just Susan as another white woman, but you know Susan and you know her story, you know everything of that sort. That adds a different layer and empathy. My goodness. I think we lack empathy as a society, you know, nowadays. That makes us more willing to have a dialogue and talk about how we can help Susan rather than we're at these 30,000 or 50,000 feet where it's like, you're saying help white women. No. Like, you know, like, it's kind of adding that human layer, you know, to it all. And so I do think and that's one of the reasons I wanna, you know, thank and reward and appreciate Andre and Todd for this because I just do not think this is happening. Susan, do you wanna add some complexity? I mean, Mary, you just said it out. Well, thank you for the thank you. Much appreciated, Marin, and I and I agree with what you said, obviously. Susan's question is actually so much related to what you just said. So I'm gonna let her chime in with her question. And, Susan, will you give some context and background and on, like, the motivation kind of behind the question? Go ahead. Yeah. Just a quick background with part of Brave Angels, our local Southern California group was doing have done some book readings on racial issues. And we try to pick a book that shows those sides each time. So I think we were doing, the book Caste and a Thomas Sowell book on the other side that I can't remember the name of anyway. So we went into our breakout rooms to have conversation, and I it was me and another white woman having a conversation about cast. And I mentioned that, and just backing up saying I agree a 100% with Marin that I've been hearing all along that we need to have these conversations across boundaries, social boundaries and class boundaries. I totally agree with that. So that's what we were attempting to do in discussing these books and have just an open conversation, and most of it has been just wonderful. But in my breakout room, I can't I think it was there was another white woman, and I think I think I don't remember who the other person was anyway. We also had observers who are they black out their video. They're muted, so we don't really know who's there. So we were talking about it, and I mentioned when we were trying to talk about what we agree or disagree in the book with. And I mentioned there was something in the book about how we nothing has changed in, racially wise in the United States since, like, we're still where we were in 18/80, and nothing much has changed. And I mentioned that I wonder I kind of doubted that statement. I I'm not I'm not feeling that statement that nothing has changed. And on that note, one of our observers decided to turn on her camera and her microphone, and it was a little it was an older black lady. And she said she basically just said, woah. Woah. Woah. I have to jump in here. And I don't know where she's coming from, so I just have to know, you know, she's got her story. She has a reason why something was triggered in her that she wanted to jump in. And I felt like I was just sort of dressed down, like, left and right for, like, 10 minutes about how, you know, kinda like how I how dare I say something like that when, you know, I don't know. I don't know the experience. I don't I don't have any sort of license to say anything like that or make any judgment like that. And so I listened and, you know, felt wounded and tried to have some introspection and some empathy was hard because I was feeling attacked, and unfairly attacked because observers are not supposed I mean, they're supposed to be part of the conversation, not sort of a sniper waiting to pounce on you from some from outside when you say the wrong thing. Anyway I have some strong feelings. So it was it was I triggered something strong, and I and I appreciate there was an emotion there and something I triggered in what I said that I she has an experience that made her react in that way. I honor that. I know there's something there, but I was I was feeling it was just hard. It was hard, and I just wonder, like, how are we supposed to have these conversations? So now there's, you know, there's always a fear about that happening, and it happened. And, thankfully, it didn't blow up on social media or anything, but you know? Well, well, first of all, I'm sorry that you had that experience because I do think even if she felt strongly about what you were saying, that that was not necessarily the way to do it in a way in which that attacked you. I'm a very vague person on calling in versus calling out. Mhmm. Where calling out can kind of attack and put people on the defensive. Like, I think there's a time and place for calling out, but I think it's rare. Like, most times, it's more like calling in, like, hey. Like, drawing you into conversation through questions. Like, what did you mean by that? But, you know, so it's more of a dialogue versus calling out. I mean, I say, you call out when someone uses a slur. Like, there's nothing to stay there. Shut it down. The end. Right? But other than that, it's about having conversation. I do think in this conversation, it is important to listen to other people's experiences and find a way to question and call in without challenging their reality. Because oftentimes, I think people get defensive and they feel very gaslit, when they're saying, hey. I experienced this, you know, or I have questions about, or I feel like I experienced this because I'm black, because I'm a woman, because I'm poor, because at any pace or and people, I think, have this, they're like, no, you didn't. It's because of, like, wait a minute. Right? And they start to feel really gaslit by it, especially when we have to understand that so many isms, racism, sexism, classism, everything of that sort, they’ve never gone away. They've just evolved. And so what I tend to think happens, and I'll use racism as an example, I think one of the reasons we have a tough time talking about it and moving forward is that when some people hear racism, they think like the Klan. Like, if I say I've experienced racism and I haven't been called the n word and I haven't been threatened with violence by the Klan and I haven't had a cross burned on my, you know, on my lawn, I'm being sensitive and I'm making it up. Right? You know? Or we're just like, no. That's not case. Racism has evolved. Where now, like, it's the microaggressions and the little, like, you use sniper. Like, it's the little snipes. Right? Like, that that's now, like, kind of coming. That makes me feel othered. That that is still racism. It's just a different way. And I'm sure we can sit here and think about sexism and all the other isms out there. It's the same sort of a thing. And I think just us making room to have these conversations and let people feel what they feel. Even if you disagree with it, don't challenge someone else's reality. I mean, you know, don't challenge someone else's intent. I've learned that too. Like, I can talk to you about the impact of your words, your behavior, anything of that sort? Right? Because maybe I'm on the receiving end of it or Andre's on the receiving end of it. But who am I to tell you, like, your intention? You know that. That's between you and God or whatever higher power you believe in. And many conversations that get shut down, you have people, like, doing this intent. I didn't mean to. I didn't mean to. Yes. You did. Yes. You did. You're not gonna get anywhere. But if I say to you, you know, regardless of your intent, this is the impact of your words or behavior on Andre, on me, on Marcus, or whatever. That's a different conversation. Yeah. I really appreciate that, Marinette. And I think that what you're saying is very true that and it's really makes it easy when we have to, like, speak in 135 characters or, you know, or we're commenting on articles or, like, having these conversations through text only. Right? I just don't think that the level of communication that is supported by that is, I don't think it's possible to get at these issues in that way, and that's where almost all of our communication has gone. Right? So yeah. You know, I just think that that really inhibits us when these should be face to face human to human interactions that that's the only way that these can be like, that's the only way we can get trust. Right? Marcus, it seemed like you actually had something similar that you were saying, Susan, now that I think about it. When you were saying when we were talking about Black Lives Matter, and you are almost it seemed to you seem to be suggesting telling me if I got this wrong. You seem to be suggesting that some in some of the approach you feel and some of the approach of Black Lives Matter that it's excluding other voices that might be different in some way, from the conversation such as your own, perhaps where you might have different views on, you might you might agree with the existence of racism, but you might have a different approach about how to tackle it or how to respond to it. And it just struck me right now that, you know, that you had, you know, and you expressed, hopefully it's okay that I share it, you expressed some anxiety about the conversation. Where did that come from for you? Like, why were you anxious about having the conversation? And I guess, how do you do you relate to what Susan said in in the same way in terms of what voices can say certain things in, in in certain spaces? Absolutely. Just speaking from a police officer's perspective, I still worry about how it's going to be perceived or received. Mhmm. What will the comments be? Will it be that I'm being dismissive or I'm not black enough when in actuality, I'm just trying to be genuine and speak my own truth, and speak on the experiences that I've had? So and I think Mary hit the nail on the head when she said, we've never really escaped the boys in the hood. Correct? Mhmm. Yeah. The scene in boys in the hood, that's the idea that you get when you see a black police officer. And so it's like, that's not the case. The vast majority of police officers go to work every day to do a good thing. I don't I don't know any police officers that go to work wanting to kill someone or to do harm or misconduct. Like, that's career suicide. You're setting your sim your family up for ruins. Who wants to go to work and do something, and then you get sued, and all your finances are tied up in litigation. Your life is ruined. What are you gonna do when you lose your job? What another career are you going to go into? Everyone's gonna know who you are. So it's just, I don't know. I think, in general, we overgeneralize. I think we clump people up, and that could be races, professions, whatever the case may be. And I think we tend to focus on our differences more so than our similarities, and that's where the downfall lies. That we're we have more in common than we have that's different. And if we would focus on those things, I think the world would be a much better place. So Mhmm. Mhmm. Mhmm. Preach, mister Marcus. I wanna I wanna clap for that. I that's true. I mean, you know, Susan brought up feeling like a Karen. I mean, I don't know what other labels you all feel like. I noticed Susan said that. Yes. He did to that. And let me just talk about being a being a police officer. Susan, you say, you know, being a Karen. Being a Karen. Darren, what's yours? What's yours? Being a Laquisha. The Laquisha. Tell us. I don't know what a Laquisha is. You have to inform me. Educate. Educate. Educate me. No. I will say being an angry black woman. I mean, that that is something that I'm very mindful of. Mhmm. You know, goes back to, you know, many remember when Michelle Obama was accused of being that, you know, etcetera, where many times, you know, just expressing yourself with passion, or anything that can be misinterpreted as being angry. I do fear that there is this perception that black women are angry, or black people hate white people. And we just, you know, don't admit it. That, is it true? But I am very careful of how I express myself. And I'll say it's in all of my interactions, like even at work and things like that. Like, there are times that instead of saying something in person, I know Landon, this gets to your 135 characters piece. But sometimes instead of saying something in person, I write it in an email. Like, not only kind of cover myself for that I sent this, but I'm like, if I deliver this in my tone, I'm going to be the angry black woman, and that is going to take this a place that I don't want to go. So let me just take that piece off of it. Take the heat off of it a little bit and, like, write it in an email. Yeah. So I can be very, very mindful of that. So I do fear being the angry black woman. Mhmm. Lan, did you have one? Oh, I'm a I'm a white male, Gus. Come on. Yeah. I mean, no. It's I don't I don't pretend to be a victim, but yeah. But I'm very cognizant Yeah. Of, you know, how I'm perceived. And, you know, I don't have really complaints about it, because I understand it. The others but I do hope that people, will treat me as a as an individual, you know, as much as possible. Yeah. And I would like to reiterate, Landon and Susan, I think your voices are so important to this conversation. I have never understood when people have felt like, oh, a white man or a white woman, like, should have no say in this. I think, like, given demographics, given power structures, given everything of that sort, your voices are very, very important. We can’t make progress without allies. And even if I mean, we've talked a lot about the civil rights movement. The civil rights movement advanced because of white allies. You know, we don't you know, you it was not going to get where it was gonna go if you didn't get any buy in or have any allyship for people who are not white. And so, you know, I think, you know, people trying to shut you out of the conversation solely based on that, I think it is stalling, you know, the movement forward that we are looking for. Thank you. I appreciate that. Good to be heard. Everybody just wants to be heard, I think. That's the basic human instinct. I don't wanna give, Landon's question short shrift, though. How do we move? When is the past the past? And when and how do we what does it take to move to kind of focus more solely on the future? Not solely, more intently on the future of us, in a country together, versus talking about focusing on, I guess, it seems to be Landon, you’re the gist of your question is focusing on what's happened to the past to lead us to now. Like, what how do when do we make more of that transition? Is that kind of what you're what you're what you're getting at with the question? Yeah. Well, I don't think the past has ever passed, really. I understand that. But the question is, how can we, start to come together as individuals to actually go beyond narratives that really get to the actual situations on the ground where we can really help people? And, you know, having a narrative in a community is important for people in some respects. Right? But, you know, there's a lot of us who wanna really help, but it's difficult because it's a very divisive, politically and race wise. It's it scares us to be involved in some respects. You know? Mhmm. So Mhmm. And I just wonder how we can come together and start to put those things aside and, like, make things I don't know. Like, I wanna I wanna help. You know? But how can we move together as us, a little bit more cohesively? I'm not sure the person's claiming Go ahead, Andre. Yeah. Because, you know, so the solution to all to the solution to that sort of not less focus on the past and more focus on focusing forward lies in the human heart. Right? And in understanding the ways in which your heart has been rooted in the past. And me in in my own healing work, and now as I approach middle age, I started to understand, like Landon said, the past is the past is never gone, but you have to learn how to integrate it and synthesize it into a narrative that supports you and where you wanna go. And I think through that process, that's when you begin to relieve because I'm just my personality. I'm the kind of person that holds all the stuff. So I'll remember that what you said, 2 twos are a go and 4 PM. I really will. But you have to learn. So you know what? That happened, but I'm going to take I'm gonna shift the lens that I'm looking at it and take the positive things. And that's why I took harking back something what I said earlier. I said, yes. Is there a part of me that is envious of the way Todd and Mary grew up since they're both friends I've known for 27 years? Yes. However, when I sat in those feelings and I began to release those feelings, I saw, you know, the benefits of maybe the way I came into being as a man. And I think Landon may identify with this with, you know, the way he came into being as a man as not being one of those people who were obviously privileged with, you know, the outward trappings of the world. Right? And I think as you as people make the heart and mind connection, and as they lean into that, then they're more able to be able to see what Marcus is saying, those similarities versus those differences. Because like Marin said, a lot of it is micro. Right? You know? But when you begin to sort of, like, make when you make the heart and mind connection of value and a practice, that's when you open yourself up, I believe, to the moving forward. But it's an individual response. And as individuals are shifted, communities can be shifted, and as communities can be shifted with models. And that's why I applaud everyone on this call for being willing to be a model of what that could look like. Yeah. Mary, you had a thought. The first word that came to mind when Landon was with asking his question is the word context. And I think that kind of gets to what you're saying where the past is never fully the past. It's about understanding the context of where communities are coming from. Like, I think we love these over simplistic, you know, the black people aren't where they should be because they're poor and lazy. Rather than looking at the context of how the black community came to be in that situation, and we throw all these oversimplified labels on there, like, oh my gosh. How about just stop having babies out of wedlock? How would you look at the context of how that came to be over time? And I think that's we don't like talking about it because it doesn't make us comfortable, or we'd like to sit there and say, I actually think it takes away from a very American contact concept of we all pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps and you know, that sort of which is a lie. Right? Because like, we could all sit here and say, no one got where they are, but by their own 2 bootstraps. Right? Right. But I think it's understanding the context, the context of different communities and neighborhoods, and that is really what shapes, you know, where we are today. Right? That's why I think it goes back to learning different histories and things like that is so important. It's not to label anybody as victim, victor, or anything of that sort. It's also understanding the context of how we got here and that it's not that simple. It's an onion of layer after layer after layer of different issues. And, actually, that also means what might have worked in one community will not work in another community. Like, I don't like it when there's this comparison of, like, why don't the black people look to Jewish people? Do what they did, and then you're gonna get where they're like, no. Like, that's like that's complete over some location. There's completely different cultures and behaviors and histories and all of that that adds context to why. And that's a hard thing to do, by the way, Marin. That's a hard thing to bring up too because, you know, over 6 over 6,000,000 of us got killed. So it's like but I understand it. We have a different context. I can at the in one breath, I can say, you know, we were, you know, almost wiped off this earth. But on the other hand, I can say, but we came over. You know, my grandparents came over. Yeah? And we while we were othered, right, in a lot of ways, it's why we went into businesses like entertainment and law and professions where we could have our own businesses. Like Andre, you said, you know, black people often like to do to be the kind of their drive their own success. We had to do that. Right? Right. But we still weren't slaves, you know, in the context of the United States over x amount of generations. So even though we had a horrendous, you know, experience over in Europe, it doesn't mean that somehow here in the United States, we've had to, you know, we got socialized into the country in the same way. Right? Right. And so it but it's a hard thing to say, though, you know, because of the tragedy of the holocaust. So, anyways, I wanted to agree with what you said, but also say, I know it's that's a hard conversation, you know, and people do that a lot, what you just said in terms of looked at this community or looked at that community. Marcus, you had something you had said to us in this vein too, where there was, like, a tension in you about this. Because you said, you know, this generation has more opportunities than the past and you worry about a certain attitude, a woe is me attitude, I think you called it. But you also know that there's disadvantages from the past. Like, I don't know, you know, this I feel like that tension goes directly to what Marin said and directly to the to the question that that Landon asked. How do you how do you deal with the tension with that tension of more opportunity than the past and, you know, generations of the black community in the past have gotten you to where you are, but yet still there's disadvantage. What what's your sense of how to deal with that tension and put the past more in the past? I think we each bear the responsibility just to make a conscious decision and effort to reach common ground. And in order to do so, you're gonna have to listen to the other person's perspective or point of view. You can't just talk to express yourself. You have to be willing to listen and understand. Don't listen to respond. Listen to reach a genuine understanding so that you can get to that common ground. Is part of that common ground an economic acknowledgment of what happened to our forefathers? In terms of reparations? Call it whatever word you wanna use. Just in terms of dealing with the economic issues, not necessarily Andre, do you mean a particular policy, or you just mean generally dealing with the I mean, all the way around. So part of that reaching common ground and feeling heard is a is a token of acknowledgment of what happened to our forebears, our ancestors, and maybe not even some people are still alive today. And maybe some of the ways some of those themes are showing up for present people. So in reconciliation and healing work, all the branches are important, and one that has been discussed a lot is an economic olive branch for African American people, people who are the descendants of the slaves that were brought here. I don't necessarily use the word reparations because I have a different view on what that economic olive branch could look like. But I'm asking, Marcus, do you think that economic, olive branch is something that is part of that common ground? And what would that look like to you? I personally don't think it is because at this point in time, I don't understand, or I don't foresee how you could even determine what that economic olive branch would be. So how would you determine what, Mary, and you and I are entitled to when we're so far removed from the disadvantage that was initially the problem? Not so much. So you so we're literally not slaves in today, but I once so 2 years ago, I read a very eye opening, report by a leading consulting company that kinda gave the state of African American people in this country, and it was astonishing. First of all, I did not know we are a people in this nation of renters that less than 30% of black people own homes. Is so we even can qualify 1. Then on top of that, banks charge us or out they don't they charge us they're fucking up at this. They're more apt to charge us fees than they are other populations with respect to why do you think that there's been the proliferation of, no minimum checking accounts, for example? Because these a lot of these larger banks, when you dip below x amount of dollars in their account. And for some people, that's just the nature of their, you know, their income is very sinusoidal sometimes. Right? Goes up and down. And so they will dip, and then they're charged these fees. And there's also with respect to that people of color, black and brown, are more likely to live closer to industrial zones that lack clean air. So I don't necessarily mean, like, okay. Give me $20,000 because I have these ancestors who were enslaved. But there are themes that run current for black and brown people that are that that put us at a physical and at an economic disadvantage. And I'm most passionate about clean air, if you really wanna know. Because many, like, there's, a I mean, I live in a place where oil is refined, and they don't refine it in the rich side of town. They refine it on the side of town where you have a lot of working class black and brown people. Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, you and I, you would say, like, here in Chicago, like, some of the land covenants that go back generations that pretty much secured a lot of the wealthier plots of lands to white communities, like, still to this day. Right? And that's just to Andre's point, like, generational wealth. You know, now you're talking about being able to hand down some of the most valuable land in the city 3, 4, 5 generations. So, Marco Marcus, is yours is your sense just to better understand your point of view, because Andre said there's not necessarily kind of a check-in the mail, but is your sense that you just wouldn't want targeted economic health because we don't really know who has, let's say, been affected in some negative economic way from the past, or are you so is the issue with the targeting of it or and the and the means you don't wanna check necessarily, or do you not think that there should be some concerted effort to lessen gaps in advantage, or to not have so much disadvantage as you yourself have acknowledged? Do you think there should be some concerted effort to deal with disadvantage that might have been passed down from generations, but maybe can't be targeted, you know, pinpointed? What what's your what exactly is your sense of it? I had never really thought about it from Andre's perspective. When I thought about it, I always thought of it in the context of a dollar amount. A dollar. Reparations. Mhmm. I didn't even think about what Meron said about how it was covenanted and there's land and I just never thought about it in that aspect. But for me, it's just more so when is enough? Mhmm. And Mhmm. If you were to divvy it up and say, Mary got 20,000 and Andre got 18, and then I get 7, who's to say what's fair? Or why didn't I get as much as them? Would it be just a blanket amount and everyone gets $5,000? Well, is that really enough? Is there any dollar amount that could genuinely resolve the disadvantage? And I completely agree with you. My question I actually agree with you, and I actually wonder, you know, when un when unpeeling you know, going past all the layers on peeling the onion, and all of that, is it really about money? Or is it really about acknowledgments? Thank you. Acknowledgment that the setup of the society we are into this day, like, did not miraculously the white people are rich, and the black people are poor with a few just, you know, with a few, like, mixed in the exceptions, right? That leads to a dialogue of there are a group of people who are just more superior than others. There are some people who are just better than others. And, like, I think that's where I get so fearful of, like, the, like, the dialogue nowadays about what to teach and what not to teach. Right? Because I'm saying, like, when you're not teaching proper context, it's almost like indirectly, that's where you want people to land. Like, black people You don't want them to know the history that led us to hear. So we have no context for what why we see certain disparities, and you worry about not teaching of that context to kind of erase that history. Exactly. I mean and that's not just here in the US. That's, like, around the world. Right? And I just say, like, if you don't stop and teach proper context, where do you expect people to land with when you go around the world, like, the money and power is with white people, and the black people are poor. You know, like So what's the inference of that outcome? Land right. You want them to land in certain, like, places. Like, rather than saying, hey. Like, for, like, literally 1000 of years, here are some things, like, here's how we landed here. And, again, I think it makes people uncomfortable, especially here in the US, when we have this whole, I did it on my own, and don't tell me I did it on my own. Right? Like, we don't want anything that challenges that. So I wanna can I just feed that back to you, Marin, so I truly get make sure I understand? And then and then, Susan, I wanna hear you know, we should hear we should hear from you how you how this is all sitting with you, how you're you know, what your thoughts, feelings are about what's been shared. But just so I understand, you worry about the erasing of that history in context, and then you worry that if we then see differential outcomes, people will make inferences about what the source of those outcomes are. Because if it's not history, then it's something else. Why Right. Why are there these wealth disparities? And if we don't know that if there's no implication of history, then there's gotta be some other answer for it. And you worry about that answer being, well, maybe some people are just more capable in in our meritocracy. Meaning they deserve it. And there's no part in his history has played no part in this. Right? Right. I see. Okay. So you worry about that inference. That makes sense to me. Susan, what's your how do you receive all of what's been shared? Gosh. Lots of thoughts. I tend to think if it's handled in terms of reparations, I worry about several things and, like, you're gonna have to prove your blackness, like DNA tests. I mean, I don't that's like Rwanda level. That's like Rwanda level. Let's put people in categories and yeah. Yikes. I don't like that. Mhmm. I also think there have been efforts in the past to do reparations in for in terms of affirmative action, which was a huge thing. It is I wasn't you know; it's been it did a lot of good. I mean, there's still a long way to go, but it did it really did a lot of good, and I wouldn't probably I wouldn't probably know Andre. Right, Andre? What do you think? Do I believe affirmative action did a lot of good? Do you do you think it was implicated? Do you think it supported you at all? Me, personally. Yeah. And I'm not saying that you were notorious. I don't think I would, But I don't think I would have the 3rd party job that I have without all of that. I'm so I definitely and I won't call them the ancestors, the forefathers. I feel a huge sense of appreciation for, who, Lord, for those first people in corporate to be the only black person in those meetings, to be before we had Excel, to be the to be the black person preparing this, you know, the presentation or whatever. Like, I stand at the feet of those people. I really, really do. And so I agree with Susan. Like, not laws around harassment. Like, we're not laws around harassment. Harassment, all of that. I mean Mhmm. By that, those are the stories of when he started working in law in the late seventies, early eighties, and some of the things that could be said to him, the jokes that could be made, and everything of that sort that nowadays, you know, would get you fired. But then it was just, I mean as a woman you chose to work here. As a woman, your head would spin if you saw some of the stuff that people sent me. My head did spin when I heard what used to happen back in the day. Oh. Mhmm. And affirmative action, sure. As a woman, I maybe I probably did the benefit. So and maybe it was a good thing, and maybe sometimes it's not so good. We all you know, it's a nuanced thing. It's not nothing is ever a 100% good or a 100% bad. Well okay. Sometimes the stuff holocaust is a 100% bad, but, you know, things Understood. You've been saying something that Go ahead. Sorry. Sorry. No. Go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. I think affirmative action was something that that there's good and bad, but in general, it was a good thing. And then the historically back black colleges, that was a whole movement that was supposed to be in the form of some kind of economic lift up. So we have done things that I think maybe the maybe that's more, like, an approach I'd prefer. And, also, I worry about reparations in terms of if it's done, then people are gonna wanna say, okay. We're over. We're done with this conversation. I told you that. Stop complaining. Yep. Move on. That's how you get in there. You got your $400 set up. You know, take your money and shut up. You know, I don't want that to happen either. That might just crush conversation. Anyway, that's all. I agree with this, isn't it? Landon, does this get to your question? Do you feel like what's your what's your sense? I mean, like I said, it's, there is offer I've I mentioned previously, you know, I've been in biotech for a while, and there's a great desire among, I think, most tech sectors and most reputable companies to incorporate more, black people into their companies. I can tell you that because I've been in the meetings, and I've listened to people that they really want. I mean, whatever the is behind that. You know? They just wanna look good or they just wanna look, you know, politically correct or something. There's a real desire for those for more integration, more diversity, and I personally know that most people at the companies I've been at fully support that. You know? Obviously, the that's not all of America. Right? But, but then there's still, disparities going down to the lowest level of, when they come in when black kids come into and this is just a blanket observation, but the there's disparities in reading and math performance, and it and it goes all the way down to the very you know, when they first get into school. So, you know, I think we're making some strides at opportunity, but we're not still getting to the real heart, which is, the younger, you know, kids, and how do we help them? How May I share something, Landon? Because you really struck a chord in me. My fear is being perceived that I'm not intelligent because I'm black. So in my internal voice that I but I'm really, really hard to say, okay. Did that make sense? Was that an intelligent comment? I'm really hard on myself to make sure that I'm that I know how to analyze things because I don't wanna appear that way. That's really interesting. Yeah. I that's see, these are the kinds of things that you just don't think about. You know? Like, the mindsets, the levels of confidence, the, level of comfort. You know? I think that's one that's my greatest, privilege is I went through childhood. I didn't feel out of place. You know? I just had a level of comfort. I love the world, and I was super curious about the world. I didn't have to experience that level of Mhmm. You know, insecurity that I think a lot of people do, and I think that makes a big difference. Mhmm. Mhmm. Powerful. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open, real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. When I was in school, I wanted to fit in so badly, you know, to the point that my, you know, teachers and things like that would have to have conversations with my parents because they were concerned that I would start not speaking up as much in class, or I would be embarrassed if I got the a plus on the exam, or whatever, because it was really clear that I was doing all I could to fit in, and they didn't want to see me compromise my academic performance, to try to do that. Which I mean, I know is common amongst kids of all different sorts of races, but that tended to be, you know, the big concern. Yeah, it was, I didn't really, I think the first time I got really angry was senior year of high school when college acceptances started coming in. Where, you know, I had gone to the same high school for all 4 years, and at the end of every year, they would announce who had the highest GPA. They would give out awards for who excelled in all the different subjects, like the most outstanding English student, most, you know, that kind of a thing. And it was a joke amongst my classmates. Why do we even go? Marin sweeps the awards. And I did. And then, you know, senior year came around, and I remember the big point of contention was when I got into Duke and one of my white male classmates didn't. And that was when I really felt the turn, and it was the whole, like, those schools have to let you in because you're black. Or and then, you know, looking back on it, some of it was parents. My parents told me you're gonna get in everywhere that you apply because you're black, and that was when I got here. I was like, y'all have seen me for the last 4 years. First of all, I've tutored some of you over the last 4 years to help you pass certain classes, and then that's what it whittles down to. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.