Do White Americans Really Care About Being "White?"

That's the impetus behind the Chris Rock joke is that we largely believe that there's a large amount of white people who feel that anything is better than being black. You can like I said, you can cure cancer. You could become a billionaire or whatever, but you're still black, which is like some sort of, you know, stamp of dis of permanent disapproval. Now that shifts depending on which white community where you are, but it's still an ethos. It's very prevalent in the country. There's a whole set of people who didn't grow up in that way. Right? Didn't grow up as I have, in a kind of strong ethnic, you know, community. Who what I would suggest may also not resonate with being part of a white group. Like, that they could equally be checking off boxes that don't resonate with them in the way that I your black identity I disagree with that. I like I I believe those people those people who you believe that, you know, may be a part of a group, but they don't really identify with the group. I think they know they're white. They love being white. They know the privilege that white brings them, and they don't want anybody else to try to get into the group. Mhmm. I strongly disagree with that. I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. For my perception, people, people, people know they're white and they love being white. Mhmm. And, no, you're not in the club. And with respect to people and being part of, like, let's say other stronger, you know, sort of identities within the white group. Yeah. As black people, we have found and I'm gonna try to I'm gonna speak fair about it now. We have found that depends on the situation. So if the situation is such, well, I need to play up my whiteness, then get along white. I'm white. Never mind whatever other subhead in the group because there's some advantage in doing so. Sure. There's less than advantage. And we just all hear you like, Oh, no, I'm, you know, whatever that subgroup is. So this is why this is why I get to the issue of duplicitousness, even among liberal white people is like that I bet to me, to me, all of that is very shifting sands depending on the context. Yeah. I mean, I think that's totally fair to say that that happens. And we've even seen, I think, historically, groups of people trying to play up their whiteness to not be felt as othered, right, to assimilate in a certain way. So I'm not suggesting that that does not happen. I think there are a group of people who, like me, just did not identify with this category, even if we would check the boxes. I'm not saying that people don't shift identities to seek advantage, and I'm not saying that people recognize the support. I mean, it's like the Chris Rock joke. Right? You know, whether someone would trade places with him given Yes. I know. You know the joke. Yeah. So what do you what do you what what do white person trade places given his wealth? And the answer would be no. No. Blackness. Right? So I completely hear you on that idea that there are people who benefit from these supports that you talk about and would not give them up, it doesn't mean that they feel part of a white group. Right? I think there is a difference. They don't identify themselves. Maybe sure. There might be people who might elevate their raise my eyebrow at Skechers. You know, have you got that? My eyebrow jumped up. Well, why why do you think well, let me ask you a question. Because I'm gonna tell you why we think there's because we know that we know that the demographic of who's in the club changes with the context. So yes. Okay. When things are copacetic in the country and everything's all cool. Oh, well, you know, I'm not this identity and that identity. But then all of a sudden, when things feel more adversarial and we have incidents of police violence or we have, like, a George Floyd, then it's like, well, wait a minute. You know? Then the club all of a sudden of whiteness expands. And, yeah, we we sit back and we watch it. We do. We as black people, we sit here. We want we see how the club grows and shrinks depending on what is going on. Yeah. I mean, I suggested to you that there are different forces that happen in, let's say, a a George Floyd incident. Right? There might be some people who in the aftermath strengthen their feelings of whiteness. There are also people who do the opposite. Right? I mean, if you think back in the civil rights era, it was seeing the injustices done to blacks plain invisible that actually led people to support the movement more. Right? So there's also backlash to such incidents that go the other direction, right? There's a growing of the population that become supportive of actions and policies that would make our country's life more equitable. So I I wanna just recognize that there are 2 forces that you know, that there are multiple forces that happen in response to to such events. And It's awfully interesting that, you know, the the back and tug of the forces and all of that. And the end result is usually black people are not as empowered or not as powerful in this country as white people. Flat out full stop. There are a few of us that have influence. Yeah. But as a collective, we don't have as much influence as that collective no matter and I get the civil rights movement. I get all that. I've seen many documentaries on it, and my grandparents were of that era era. But and I hear all that, but I also look at the end result. So 40 years later, what where are we? And then this is where we are. So, yes, there has been change, but it seems as though, to quote a friend, the change always comes at the great at the grace in favor of white people negotiating internally, and it's always never as much as black people would desire. And then previously, in so would you say the not the because I think they're the modern day civil rights civil rights movement with respect to social media is very different than the one that which we know. But previously, we were told we'll accept this and we're gonna get more later. And now what what we call these these millennial black people that they are ready and they are not playing with they are not playing with white people. We won't we won't we won't we won't it now. Yeah. And as some of us who are seventies sixties and before with respect to when we were born in generations, we respect that. I'm like, these they ain't gonna not play it. None of this, you know, but we just hold on and fuck that. Fuck that. No. And not so I hear what you're saying about the new forces. I get that all that, but it always seem that in the old in the book in the paradigm before, I'd say 2010, the paradigm before 2010, that's what we had to contend with. And this paradigm after 2010, 2020 and plus, we want we want fetch faster change. Yeah. I think what so I I yeah. I have a couple reactions to that. One is the slowness of change with regard to changing the way changing inequities. Let's just be very general about it. Right? I mean, I think there's, there are some that would say to deny that there's been any, you know, that there hasn't been any progress. To deny any progress is not to see progress that's been made. Now on the reverse side, there's, yeah, but look at the challenges that still exist. Like, what's taken so long to get to these? So I'll just state that. I think, you know, I still think that there is a difference from 40 years ago, 50 years ago, 70 years ago, a 100 years ago. But I'm not meaning to say that that suggests that there isn't significant amount of progress that still needs needs to be made. So some people will will kind of respond to what you said in that way. Focusing on the progress that still needs to be made and why is it so slow, I think I think to jump from what makes progress so slow to the idea that, you know, the white population generally feels themselves part of some group and that that is what prevents that change, I think misses some kind of structural pieces about the way the United States works. Like in the United States, minority populations, a minority of people in the United States can wield a whole lot of power. 90% of people want to see some sort of change in gun laws. Right? Background checks and whatnot. Why doesn't that happen? A ton of people, I don't know what the percentages are. I haven't seen them recently, wanna get money out of politics. But yet we're moving in the opposite direction where money can flow more into politics. There's a there's a whole set of issues where there's a broad part of the population that supports some kind of change and somehow those changes don't get made. And the way that power is wielded in the country with regard to changes in policies enables some small number of people to slow down progress, stop progress or stop change if you don't think it's for people who don't think it's progress. So all I'm saying is that to jump Yeah. But that's not the illusion that's sold to us as citizens. The illusion so I get all that because, like, you know, I think you're saying to your point, Andre, most white people probably don't have, you know, motivations of creating inequities with respect to blacks, but a small number of people probably do, and those people have enough power to make sure that enough of it happens to be notable. Right? But what's sold to us And even there's even more to what I to what I thought. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So it's that, and it's not just it's also the jump to think that some broad swath of the white population is like has some strong identification with being white and being part of a white group. So I'm not even thinking policy and power. I'm just thinking of how people identify. And I'm trying to suggest to you that there's probably a whole lot more people who are like me, who just don't even think about it, Who just who, again, yes, what box are they gonna check? They're gonna check the white box, but do they go around thinking about themselves in this way? Is this the way that they prominently identify? Do they walk around and say, oh, I identify with you because of the color of your skin. I feel some sort of camaraderie with you. I feel like I'm in the same group with you. I feel some belonging with you and common cause with you. To jump from what has slowed down change to that means that whites generally identify as whites. I also think I also think there's just stronger factors. And I I just don't I think there's a large number of white people who would be like me. I don't know what percentage, but a decent number who who just this is not the way that they thought about them. So this is not something they gave a whole lot of of thought to and put emotional energy into belonging to, while also recognizing that there's a a number of people who do. Certainly, clearly, there's a number of people who do. I think the people who who don't who don't put much thought or haven't or really strongly identified, you know, like you said, you don't have to you don't have to strongly think about something that's already a given. And maybe I mean, it's a it's a given, and I think that the degree to which they do or don't identify shifts with the context, but is it nice that it's a given? Yes. And also I think that what we're talking about is very different in parts of the country. So please believe so I've spent most of my life in the United States South. Right? And what I'm I'm not I'm trying to perpetuate old tropes about the southern part of the United States, but what I am saying is some of that sentiment is still even even if it's expressed in a softer manner, maybe not as directly as it would in decades before, is still here. And that and you and and inferences are made to to like, no. I'm white and I'm proud of it. Even if I'm not of, the best cast, you know, and social cast, I'm still white and I'm proud of it. And that, you know and anything is better than being black. Like, that's why that's the impetus behind the Chris Rock joke is that we largely believe that there's a large amount of white people who feel that anything is better than being black. You can like I said, you can cure cancer. You could become a billionaire or whatever, but you're still black, which is like some sort of, you know, stamp of dis of permanent disapproval. Now that shifts depending on which white community where you are, but it's still an ethos. It's very prevalent in the country. Yeah. Yeah. No. I I hear you on what I what I think I heard. Let me make sure I I understood what I heard. Is even if it's not a strong identification, that doesn't mean that the way that you are perceived and the way that systems are set up, or the way that culturally we have associations based on race isn't going to support you more in certain contexts. That's what I meant by There's some sort of more passive kind of benefit that you get. That's what I mean. I can Isn't it nice to have it as a given? So you don't have to strongly identify or not because it's a given. Yeah. Yes. And I think so so that I agree with. And that's what I'm trying to to kind of peel apart is and I even said it about myself. Right? People I recognize that people are going to perceive me as being white, and that's gonna mean whatever it means in their psychology. And, generally, over the average of people in the United States, that's gonna mean some sort of more positive association than it would in being black. Right? And I guess what I'm saying is even if so I guess what I'm saying psychologically for the person who doesn't have a strong attachment to white identity is that even if you're so that's that person's perception of you as white, and you may not have a strong attachment to the collective white identity. And my thinking is that some part of you must, because look at the benefits that come with it just being a given. And if you were to take that person out of those benefits, would you still have the same feeling? And I think in that if you were to take them out of those benefits, they would have they would not have the same feeling. They're like, I wanna be I need to be white. Like, that is the impetus behind the Chris Rock joke, is that if you were I mean, and and when people have, you know, maybe dressed up and tried to see what it's like as a black person, like, some talk shows have done over the years, that's the that's that's the that's the driving force behind the joke is that, like, no. Like, even if I'm of the worst white cast, there's still so much of a benefit and lack of burden of being white that I wouldn't trade it even if I only passively or barely identify with. Yes. I think that's a really strong point. And I guess just to piece that apart a little bit, I think a person in that situation who is making that decision to maintain their whiteness, right, if given a choice, if we were to magically, you know, have this power, right, to to choose how we're gonna show up when it comes to race and the color of our skin, the the power of that joke is that they wouldn't give it up. And so or the meaning. Right? The the kind of basic the basic message. And I think that is a recognition of the society that we live in. Right? It's based on. Right? The the the unwillingness to give it up is based on a recognition of the society we live in. And so then the question becomes, well, if this is the size society you live in and you wouldn't give it up, why why not seek to change it? Right? And I don't know all of people's reasons. I don't know all of the motivations and psychologies behind why people don't seek to change it or maybe don't even support the change itself. So there might be some people who support it, but don't don't aren't motivated to seek to change it. There might be some people who don't even support it. Right? And some of that might be because they benefit from it. So I And this is kind of an emotional topic for me because sometimes in the I've been with black friends, you know, we you know, you over cocktails. You ask self indulgent questions. And, you know, over the years, black friends have asked, like, if you could be any race in the world, what would you be? And then you have to understand for a black person to ask, they give it all of our history that we've had with Western Europe and the United States and Latin America. And, you know, and I my black friends may mention different races. And whenever the question landed on me, I always said I said I would still be black. I said given all of the everything, I would still be black because, you know, I identify with it. I identify with it emotionally because it's what made me, and I like what it made. Yeah. And I think yeah. And we talked about this previously that should we should live in a society that supports that being the case for everybody. Yes. Yeah. I mean, because especially for something that you are given at birth. Right? Especially for something that I mean, certainly people have in, you know, in history and and currently try to change their the color of their skin, right, and other physical attributes. So I'm not suggesting that that doesn't that that can't and that doesn't happen. But there are other things we can we can change that are more malleable in our lives. And and and so for something that are that isn't so malleable, we should live in a society that makes people that that gives people more of an opportunity to feel proud of that. And so I devil's advocate. So because they all too as I hear, I hear white pride white pride. And that's why I started asking about guilt. Right? Because white people real hell, I don't know. Don't put your guilt shield on me. Like So so I would we're going in the same direction. Yeah. We're totally So here is a little bit of my challenge, my distaste, Steven. Distaste is a strong word, but my hesitation. That's a strong that's a better word, around assuming or going too far in thinking that this this the larger white population has this, like, strong identification with being white. And here's the reason why, or that they should own their whiteness, which means kind of owning their guilt or their privilege or whatnot. Right? I actually think that's a state of of the world that I would not like. Now think about this. Do you want so imagine that white identification is at this level. K? Do you want whites to identify more with one another? And there are ways Oh, I wish Mary were here. Do you? I mean, I certainly don't want that world, but, I mean, you know, and the more we harp on anyways, I wanna hear what I I don't wanna go further. I have more thoughts on that, but you have a a clear feeling of thought there. So one thought is that some some friends of mine would say it's already there. They just play it down the differential. To answer the question personally, there are 2 parts. From a spiritual perspective, I want all people to feel that they can present as they present. However, the way you present doesn't need to denigrate other people. Yes. From a pure pop that that's like I said, you said, you know, peace and love, Andre. That's the peace of mind. Andre, like, hell no. I mean, the hell no. Yeah. I really got problems right now, but he's people. Let alone yes. Yeah. So so here funny. So I I appreciate actually both your friends' point of view on this as well as yours, actually. There there is if we want you want a recognition, I I would assume. Tell me if I'm wrong. Mhmm. You want a recognition on people who, let's say, present white. Right? Who who are perceived as white, who are get classified in other people's minds as white, like myself, even if I don't identify Mhmm. You want you would want someone to at least acknowledge that. Right? The Chris Rock joke. Would you trade? Do you understand? Would you trade your color? Right? And specifically, would you would you wanna be black if it meant being wealthy? Right? And you want people to recognize and just be aware and acknowledge that there is some difference in the way people are treated and some significant and meaningful difference in the way that people are treated based on the color of their skin, and that you, Todd, other people who present as white, as someone who does present as white benefit, right, from that, right, in general. Correct. But at the same time, you don't want that conversation to lead someone to feel like, oh, that's gonna make me more strongly identify as white and to, you know, bond and feel camaraderie camaraderie with other people who are white. You have all the camaraderie you want, but white doesn't equal superior. Right. But you wouldn't want I mean, you let's take superiority out of it for a moment. I'm not suggesting that that's not there. Okay? Let's just strict. Let's take that out. Would you want, even if they didn't feel superior, would you want the set of white people in this country to bond together as a group to advocate for themselves? Not because they're superior, but because they just want benefits. Would you want that to happen? This is a good question. This is an excellent question. And I'm not I'm not I'm I'm not torn about the question or about the subject of the question. I'm torn within myself. If so my answer is, if we were in a place where all lives had equal value Mhmm. And everyone acknowledged that value. And, I mean, you know, financial equity, social equity, how, you know, climate equity, if you will, since then I would have no problem with that. Right? Because we would recognize that these people are advocating for benefits out of a human need. But given the history of the country, sometimes you don't know if with especially because with, you know, the collective of white people, they've had the power institutions have had majority white people for so long. Could that, you know, uniting lead to the subjugation of others? And that's where because the history of the country says it it could, and it likely would. So I'm torn between where is the country in that place. So I'm torn between wanting to be racially protective and also a spiritually open being. Yeah. See, I there is nothing to me. I think there's just two thoughts on this. One is my question to you, and and then there's a cultural question. Right? Because I was talking about power, right, and and and advocating in a way, but there's also the a cultural question. So let's go with the power question first. I just I do not wanna live in a world where white people are banding together and even if it's of need, wanting to make sure that white people's needs are met prior to other people's needs, right? Even if it's based on need, right? I want a world where people say there are people who have greater need and people who have lesser who have a lesser need, and we need to support people in being the best that they can. We can't give them, you know, middle class lifestyle on a platter, but we sure as hell can support them more. And that that should not be based on the color of one's skin. That, yeah, full stop. As in addition to that, I think there needs to be a recognition that our history and the that there are current inequities across races and and ethnicities that have been baked in through historical racial domination, through lots of choices that were racially based or at least had differential racial outcomes. And that that's a historical unfairness that needs to be taken into account when thinking about how to support people live their best life. So I'm not just, you know, colorblind, universalistic, let's help everyone. I am that, but I also think to completely ignore our racial history and racial outcomes based on that history is naive and neglectful and wouldn't get the best results because it doesn't live in reality. Like there were real racial events, racial choices, and current Yeah. Racial biases and actions. And and I think that's just naive, right, to think that it just oh, let's be color blind and universalistic. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race, and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open, real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. We have a history of when there's been confrontation with whites, life or death. Right? So for us, it we we're we're constantly looking for a threat. Like I said, a mongoose and a cobra. We're constantly looking for a threat. And maybe that's a poor, poor analogy. And and for You're making it real. You're making it physical. Like, Yeah. Like, because I really want it to be visceral. Right? You know? So we like I said in as I was watching one of the episodes, I concentrate a lot on self preservation. And so you're if you're always looking for some sort of existential existential threat, you don't want, a dropping of the guard, if you will. You always want your guard up. The cobra and the mongoose. Now people are gonna say which is which. I didn't go there, but there are some who might ask that question. And we're not gonna state. I think that a response from some portion of the white population would be we just don't all wanna be seen as a COBRA. But now you've answered their question. We don't all wanna be seen as a COBRA. We acknowledge that there are some different some threats, some we just don't wanna be lumped into this. We don't wanna be seen as this intentional predator of black people in this country. Well, then and and my retort to that my retort to that is okay. Cool. So talk to your people. That's to me, that's not a Black problem or a Black issue. That's a white problem. So if you don't wanna be seen as that, tell these people to tone down their rhetoric. And we will deescalate rhetoric as the same, like, to use the analogy. So the mongoose is gonna relax when the cobra goes to sleep. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.