Why Do Some Black Americans Support White Lives Matter?

Thank you for tuning in to Healing Race. In this video, Todd and I discussed the white lives matter phenomenon. What makes some people feel the need to state that white lives matter, and what motivates some prominent black Americans to promote white lives matter? Andre and I also discussed the upsides and downsides of taking a more universal approach, not based on racial identity, to solving social issues, and whether focusing on race can increase racial conflict. So let's get to that conversation now. Enjoy. The article I sent you was, you know, various people in the media and famous people have started who are who have self-identified as African American in the past have started to wear paraphernalia that says white lives matter. And some black people on social media or people who self-identify as African American have had angry feelings about that. And first of all, if you and I are gonna have a show called Healing Race, then we're gonna have to talk about this phenomenon that's, you know, come up that black people, you know, African Americans supporting white lives and what they're trying to make that how they're framing that discussion and what it looks like. So my first question to you, since you're the white representation in the conversation so far, is what comes up for you emotionally when you see that kind of paraphernalia? A black person wearing that paraphernalia or supporting that perceived ideology? Yeah. I mean, my first instinct is more curiosity. Like why does someone feel the need to promote white lives matter, white or black? What's the motivation behind it? And I don't honestly fully know. I could guess at what the motivation is, but I don't I don't fully I don't fully know, to be honest, the motivation. I don't really connect with the need to kind of voice the phrase white lives matter. But what I will say, because I don't know that I've experienced or that the people in my network have experienced life or society in such a way that would give them the impression that they don't matter, right? Because why do people say, feel the need to say our lives matter? That need to vocalize or why would an individual say that? The need to vocalize it is presumably because they don't feel they matter, right? And so I guess I haven't experienced as someone who, you know, is white, who, you know, checks that box when it's asked of me, who, you know, if anyone were to ask, would say, you know, if anyone were to see me, would say that I'm white. And, again, people who I know, I just haven't seen their lives not be shown to matter as a group. Right? I'm sure individual white people feel that way in their families, in their neighborhoods, in their communities. But as a group, I haven't seen that to be the case. So it it's not something that I connect with. I wonder why people would feel the need to connect with it. I have some ideas on why they might feel the need, why they might connect with it, why they might feel the need to, that it is voiced. But, but specifically a black person connecting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen. I don't know that I have any feelings about it but I, the thoughts that come to mind are there are a, there’s a part of the black community that is clearly concerned about identity advocacy, identity-based advocacy, identity-based politics. This is what I've heard from people who generally may not wear white lives matter, but generally have concerns about Black Lives Matter and the focus on race. So I'm just expressing what I've heard in terms of the concerns. The concerns are that we want to be, you know, it's kind of the aspiration of race neutrality. Right? It's the idea of like a colorblind society, which I know you don't subscribe to, right? You want a color kind of aware society that respects all shades of everything, right? Yeah. You think there's some meaning, some importance to our different complexions and our different, you know, cultural backgrounds. And so we don't want to just be neutral, and we don't just want to be blind to it. But there are people who think, listen, racial issues in the past were based on race. So I think their basic point of view is why fight fire with fire? Right? Why give more credence to the message that we are different when we want to see that we're at least in a fundamental way the same, which you've also said on this program, right, that we all have heart, we all have wisdom. There are some basic parts of our humanity that we all share. And what they want to say is, let's not focus on the black and the white. Right. Let's focus on our common issues. Right. And sure, there might there's maybe different historical experiences, but let's not add fuel to the fire by bringing by focusing so much on race and having the conversation be through that lens. That's what they feel. Right. And so they take Black Lives Matter, right? So there's some people who reacted to Black Lives Matter by saying all lives matter, right? And this new tact, this new response of saying white lives matter seems to presume, which I don't agree with, right? But seems to presume that by stating Black Lives Matter, we are that someone who states Black Lives Matter is insinuating that other people don't matter in some way. I think what they might say if I were to channel them, they might say that where the conversation has gone from this Black Lives Matter movement, it has approached the conversation of race in a way that doesn't show that white lives matter or that white voices matter, that there has been a kind of shutting down of the white voice in some way. And they might, again, I don't know people's motivations. I'm just guessing they might feel the need to say, hey. White voices matter too in this conversation. It's, you know, maybe they think that the approach to the conversation around Black Lives Matter has carries with it some of the problems that it itself is trying to resolve. That in the in the approach, there's a kind of bias or prejudice or constraining of the voices of people who are not black, in particular, people who are white, that is the very thing that they themselves would complain about in reverse. Right? And so there might be some sense in which, okay, well, we're gonna claim white lives matter, to raise those voices that they think are being perhaps being quashed in reverse. So these are the things that I would imagine could be some of their motivations or the thoughts behind why they're doing it. Again, I mean, there's some, even if I don't agree with their message, I can give them some sense of respect for, you know, like in the article, the concern, and I've heard this from other people in the black community, even personally, not even influencers, people that I know who have had these concerns. There are concerns that there can sometimes be in all movements no matter who is who are the leaders or what the movement is for. A movement toward group think, right? That we all have to think alike. And you can tell in that article, she's saying we don't have to all think alike. Like we're not all the same. And maybe I disagree with the need to say white lives matter, but I can at least respect the motivation, respect her ability to voice her views. So did I. In a context that's really hard. Right? Yeah. Mhmm. So did I. Yeah. And even if a young woman, we don't all have to think the same. Yeah. So those are those are some of the things that come up with regard to what about you? Like, what are your some of your thoughts about, well, the article and the white lives matter, but also what I what I had to say. What's your perspective? And feelings about it, right? Because you've talked in previous episodes about kind of black pride and the need to kind of be a collective as a black community and black identity. So you might, you know, I'm wondering in that context, how do you feel about it? Certainly. So identity has many dimensions. I don't to start my personal feeling of wanting to get away from identity makes me feel uncomfortable because there's some you just can't leave identity behind. It's you wear it with you who's who you are. For all of my life, I will be a gay black man, and there is nothing wrong with that. That's not inherently bad, and it's not inherently good. It just is. What troubles me is when humanity starts what I call my parlance for that is marginalizing but signing assigning a value. Okay? So you're black, you're gay, you're this. And that means x y z, that means this about your life. And, you know, people who I don't wanna say empower, but people who, you know, have the means of production, who can influence society when they make those kinds of value assignments about people that say for me being gay black man, then you can begin to influence others to think in a negative way about people. So I don't I don't like to get away from identity. I think identity should be embraced, but there that embracing is multidimensional. So what black pride may look like for one person may look differently for another person who both self-identify as black or African American. So, you know, the young lady in the article, maybe she was expressing her black pride by, you know, making the statement that white lives matter. And then let's take me, for example, I'm, expressing black pride differently and focusing on another dimension by looking at the outcomes and the general outcomes that black lives and African American lives of, of those outcomes in this country. Right? So I tend to be rather a pragmatist, really focusing on, you know, let's look at the arc of a life and how it's supported, how it's not supported, and the ways in which you know you're set up to become a thrive to have a thriving life right and I've spoken of this before, so I don't feel any sort of animosity to black people who are stating white lives matter. I think if that's what they feel in their heart and they're leaning, they should. But I also, you know, counsel them that in that support, because we are we are endeavoring to that every human being on the planet is valuable. But it feels as though because of what I wanna say is I get it. But we're not there yet, and what I mean by the we're not there yet that there's still enough of a lack of support, or let's say, hey, you know, sometimes deliberate denial of support of black people to, you know, of black people, and even people who are socioeconomically poor to say that we have work to do so white lives matter. Yeah. But also look at what's happening with other black lives. There are current cases. I mean, look at the Mississippi welfare scandal. Look at the Jackson, Mississippi water scandal. Those things are largely impacting black people. I mean, think about it, and they're impacting white people too, but they're largely impacting people who can't afford for, let's say, the water scandal, to import potable water for their living needs from other places. Now, you know, and so and though the those largely are black people. So I would ask, you know, people who want to support white lives. That's great, and, you know, we are a human family, but also don't forget that some black people are being left out of the inclusion in that human family, and their present-day scandals to point to. I mean, the Mississippi welfare scandal alone. Once I sat down and it was explained to me, like, what happened and how the, you know, how the states were using these federal funds, and they were supposed to use these federal funds to directly help people who, you know, are on the margins of society, you know, because they lost a job or and like I tell everyone, you know, it's good. It's good to be confident. Everyone's all confident till you get sick, have an illness, have a major or a major medical diagnosis and watch your world change. And you'll see just how black and broke you are when you have to start paying medical bills. For real, I've seen this. I have seen it ravaged lives. And, you know, and so if we don't deliberately include every everyone, then there is the possibility of some people, being left out. And so that's why that's why I feel troubled. I definitely agree that, you know, African American people and black people should not think as a monolith. You need to speak your truth and speak your heart. And part of that is supporting the white people who are a part of our human family. Like you said, you once cited, you know, what if a family in some remote part of the United States feels like my life has been pretty supportless? Yeah. But then you also said another thing that as a group, you haven't seen the perceived threat that a person who may wanna make the statement that Black Lives Matter would make, and that's what I'm pivoting to. So I'm pivoting more so, you know, while we are so desperate and while we should include everyone, let's make sure we really include everyone. I mean, this is a jarring thing that in a country like the United States, people don't have potable water. You use potable water for everything. We even go to the bathroom in potable water. Right? Yeah. I think some of the some of the motivation, my guess. Is so one of the responses, I think, to what you just shared might be, well, then why don't we focus on? So you talked about the, you know, white Americans who might live in some communities where there are very few supports. Right. And you say you're acknowledging a certain socioeconomic disadvantage. And I think the question might be in reverse. Why do we focus on identity as the driving force of the need for help, as the impetus for the need for help, rather than what we're trying to help, which is socioeconomic disadvantage. I'll have an answer to that question. That would include white people and people of all sorts of colors and backgrounds. If that's the one of the main kind of drivers or focus areas, why not just support why not just focus on that? Because somebody's oh, I can handle. Please, the cock to answer your question. There is because there is a type of practical answer to it. Because when you look at the outcome of that of programs that have taken that approach, they always somehow sometimes seem to leave out. The black people get the lesser of the impact. So they get aid, they get relief, but they get the lesser of the relief. Right? Yeah. And so that's all well and good, but that's naive. And that's also running from an identity when you should embrace all identities. Right? So when I mean, you know, when your approach is leading to an outcome such that sir you know, some group of people and they're largely African Americans are left behind in whatever resource or good, that they have a right to as citizens of this country, then I question it makes one question whether the motives of the program were genuine or whether the program was well thought out. So that as a strategy works well in an ideal world if you don't have a system with actors that want to deliberately make sure black people receive less of a good or a service. Yeah. So what you're saying is focusing on a shared category, on a shared identity, on a shared problem, this kind of more universal approach is good in theory. Right. But what winds up happening is it leaves room for biases and biases against specific identity groups that have been marginalized more through history. It leaves the field open and you're at the notes. Go ahead. Sorry. It leaves the field open, for someone who is an actor in an institution that has some sort of power to act against groups you have a biased against. Yeah. So universal a universal approach is not necessarily an impartial approach or an equal approach. Yes. Because it leaves the room for biases to come in, for inequalities to drive outcomes. And that's where you find, while it seems like you can appreciate the heart behind the universal approach. Right. And maybe that is an aspiration. You just don't think it’s realistic to think that that's going to lead to kind of equal levels of support. And. We don't have someone here who kind of can take the position of you know, whether that's a valid kind of point or not. I'm sure they were a variety of people would take that as valid. Maybe they would agree with that as a reality or not. I think another I think another response you might get beyond, like, why not universal, more universal categories, more why not shared issues? Is that to focus on identity is to play with fire in a way in this way. So we have multiple identities, and we have multiple differences across identities and how you choose to focus, what identities you choose to focus on can greatly impact how people feel about one another. So there was this research study and I'm not going to remember it perfectly. Right? But it gets to this basic point. There's been a number of research studies kind of like this. They had I'm gonna do my best at remembering it, but you get the basic point even if I mess up details. They had students react with their feelings about different identity groups. Mhmm. But they approach the question differently with 2 different sets of students. Mhmm. And so let's just take police. I think police was one of the categories. When they were focused on as police, there were a heightened level of, there was a heightened level of I think anger as an emotion toward that identity group. Right? Because to some, the police student, right, relationship can be fraught in some ways. And so that led to this different emotion. When the categories change to, I believe it was like American versus let's say another group, right? And so these are also identities that we hold, right? That the level of approval and positive feeling toward police as a group changed to increase to be more positive. It's the same people, right? It's the identity that we're lens that we're choosing to look at them through. And so I think some of the intuitive motivation behind why black and white people might wanna say white lives matter. But let's in this article, it was it was black Americans who want to say white lives matter. Now, in this case, they're choosing to fight fire with fire rather than saying all lives matter, which is a whole a whole other story. But I think some of the concern around, let's say, Black Lives Matter is by, again, focusing on the racial lens, your heightening awareness of categories that will also maybe not take relationships in the direction we want. That's a soft way of saying it. Right? That could lead to more feelings of bias and animosity. Whereas if we change the lens of the category, we also make relationships more constructive. So it's not just about the issue itself, but it's the nature of how we relate to one another. And I think some of the pushback around identity politics is by focusing on this lens of race, we're in like in that research study heightening the kinds of feelings we actually don't want to have because they prevent us from working better together. There was another study where they put Republicans on, you know, in groups of 3, I think it might've been or 6, or, you know, I forget what the number of the group was. But a group of Republicans and a group of Democrats, they had them on different sides. I think they might have even had them wear red and blue. And they had them interact in certain ways or they had them play certain games. It was a research study, you know, engage in certain activities. And then they, asked them about their feelings about Republicans and Democrats and their feelings about what and obviously there was bias there. Right. There was bias. There was discrimination. They are then. Had them be on the same team. They even like went so far as like they changed their if I remember correctly, they changed their shirts. No longer did they wear the red and blue. They made a mix. They made some people mix and they probably kept some people separated. I forget exactly again how it worked. But the group that wound up integrating, right, that had a new shared identity wound up experiencing so much less bias toward Republicans and Democrats, right? Because they're part of a shared team. And so I think some of the instinctive pushback around focusing on identity groups is that part of our natural human inclination is that when we have distinct different groups there is a tendency to develop biases across those groups. And so is it the most effective approach to focus on the racial lens? And that doesn't mean that they don't have to answer to your, I think what I think are legitimate issues, which is, I don't know where I stand. I'm just probably somewhere in between, you know, on this, but where the universal approach hasn't led to an equitable approach. So you're telling me let's have a shared identity, but then when you try to have a shared identity Go ahead. Say something? Yeah. What I wanna say is that there is a contingent of white people who don't want a shared identity with black people. At all. So this the I hear what you're saying with that study and but that presupposes that the people didn't they already had an inclination to having a shared identity of a person with a difficult with a different political leaning or of a different race. And, fundamentally, these people, you know, who are there's a contingent of people who don't want a shared identity. Number 1, sometimes because it's profitable. And number 2, because they these they believe that they are better than the people who they don't want to be a part of their identity. Right? And so when you have and I again, I always come back to outcomes. If the outcome of the person with the identity that's always received, it could be reversed. Let's say black people were in control and white people were always, let's say, you know, getting the lesser or getting inequitable outcomes, they would be saying the same thing. So when you I mean, all of that is well and good, like universal this and whatever, but when you look at the outcomes, then what you what you the see, you have my star made a cousin. Like, what's the thing? Talk is cheap and bullshit makes the grass grow. And so if the outcome is something where we're not all receiving equitable outcomes, then you're then it didn't work. And we all have to I mean, people who are willing to put in the same contribution, in theory, should have an equitable outcome. Right? You know? No one's talking about here a free ride, which is what some people are gonna take this conversation and say I'm advocating for. I'm not advocating for free rides. You receive an outcome based upon your effort and your contribution. But when part of the people you're working with are those who control the rules to the game, and they're always changing the rules. And I thought about this from childhood. We've all we were all children, and we've all played games. And I don't know if you have that one kid in your neighborhood that loved to make up games, but then in the middle of the game, change the rules. Change the rules. And then yeah. And you could never, like, wait a minute. But the rule that you didn't say that before and you never won the game, that's what it feels like to be us. That is what it feels like to be us. Good analogy. Yeah. So what you're trying to say is let's look at the outcomes. You know, does the universal approach lead to more equitable outcomes, or does a kind of targeted approach lead to better outcomes? And we've had times in our history where we did have some targeted some targeted approaches. Right? Mhmm. You know, the voting rights act had certain targeted approaches around race in particular. Right? Mhmm. And well, let's see how that's evolved. Right. And so the universal approach leaves it open to bias in your point from in your point of view has left it open to bias. And if you believe that there's a world where people don't want to have the shared identity. Right. And we'll get to that that comment in a second. Then the universal approach leaves it open for those people to implement their bias. Right. If it's if it's not targeted. Once you make it structural, it's pervasive. So that's what you that that's kind of what your what your claim, you know, putting forward your claim. And then the other thing that you're putting forward is if people are willing to put forth equal effort and be motivated to have equal contribution or substantial contribution to society through their work, if those motives, if those intentions are there, then you would expect there to be more equitable outcomes. And if there are not equitable outcomes, which there aren't, so data will bear that out. Right? If there are not equitable outcomes, then one has to think about the reason why. Right? And so either you believe that the intention to make effort and provide contribution is not equal, I. E. Some people are lazy, and some people are not. Right. Or Guns and butter. I remember that from Econ. Or you have to believe that there's some kind of structural issues. Right? Or you have to believe that there's some kind of innate differences in capabilities. Right? Because it's like, you have innate differences in capabilities. You can still you can still have an equality of people who would be similar in cape capabilities. You know? Yes. Yeah. So but what I'm saying is there might be some who might say, yeah. But what if capabilities are different across races or across groups? Then even if they put an equal effort, they're going to have different outcomes. Right? But when you slice the group, it all depends on how you parse the group. Right? So I'm not just agreeing with this, but I'm just saying you have to have a theory of why there are differences. And either you think there are innate differences, or you think there are effort differences, or you believe there are structural differences. Right? No, I get it, I get it, I get it. One of those 3 has to play into the differences in outcomes. You have to tell some story, and your story is it structural because you are saying people are- I'm saying structural is the most insidious. Is the most insidious. But what I'm guessing, because you've talked about effort and contribution. Mhmm. So I'm guessing you will look at the distribute no. Obviously, people within the white, you know, within the white population are gonna be different in their capabilities. We're just like, not everyone is equal in capabilities, or they have different capabilities, some of which are valued more in society and some of which are not. We're just different as human beings. But if we look at black people as a whole and white people as a whole and other groups as a whole, Mhmm. They're gonna be highly capable people and middle capable people and less capable people. Right? And, again, their people have different capabilities, so it's, you know, it's hard to say capable. I could be hugely capable in one thing and horrible in another thing. But, anyways, in a general way, we can talk about capability. And your basic premise is listen. Yes. There are more capable people. Yes. There are less capable pea people, but there are not necessarily differences across groups. You have capable people in groups in different groups and generally middle capable people and less capable people in all groups. So given that roughly there's equality and capabilities, right, if we're making the same effort to contribute, we should have equal outcomes. Right? And if we don't, then there's gotta be something else, some other factor, and you put that as some kind of structural historical issue. Right? Whereas others might explain it away through effort or through capability. Right? Which my guess is you would take as some kind of prejudice or might always put forth more effort, and they're always more capable. Yeah. Yeah. For 400 years, we've been hearing that. Yeah. For over 400 years. Yeah. So, again, from your point of view, it's like the universal approach hasn't worked because it lets the same structural issues to continue. Right? And there needs to be a more targeted approach because, generally, people want to make an effort and contribute. Right? And so some people need help, greater supports in getting to the point where they can do that, where their effort makes a difference for their lives and for how they can contribute. Yeah. I mean, I And just to give more clarity on what I'm saying Yeah. It is based on the evolution of racial history in this country. We need to be mindful. And you mentioned the Voting Rights Act. We need to be mindful and watch out for structural issues that have racial bias being so insidious that they really deny entire large groups of people opportunity. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm just saying that hasn't gone away. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topicshealingraceshow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. Y'all really don't know what it's like to be Black. And if you if you did, if you did the whole not a day in my shoes, you live a year in my shoes, like, goddamn. Like, we're like, wow. Woah. Woah. You know? And it’s hard to have the shared experience when one group of people's experience can be so much more beneficial or so much more yields so much more than that of the other group of people. When they're when they're when you are so far apart, you're almost diametrically opposed, it's hard to come together like magnets. Nor would you say more than me. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.