Do Cops Over-Police Blacks in America?

Sometimes bad things happen. I'm not speaking on unjust killings like Tyre Nichols, George Floyd. But sometimes killings happen. They do, and they're not always unjustified. I struggle when you say that. Because I'm like, do they really need to have I really struggle personally when you say that. To start, I absolutely believe that police forces should be a replica of the communities that they serve. So it definitely needs to be diverse and look like the community that it serves. I believe police officers have to be cognizant and aware of the actions that they are taking and use reasonable force necessary to affect and arrest. You can't just be out here beating people and using excessive force. But I also believe that society or communities need to understand that sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad. Sometimes it's ugly. Sometimes bad things happen. I'm not speaking on unjust killings like Tyre Nichols, George Floyd. But sometimes killings happen. They do, and they're not always unjustified. I struggle when you say that. Because I'm like, do they really need to have I really struggle personally when you say that. Why so? It just feels that there could be other ways of handling the situation, but you are the expert. I'm the layperson. If there were other ways to handle every situation in that instance, then why is there a need to carry a gun? So But I got other countries that need to time in? Please. I mean, maybe I mean and I and I wanna be mindful. We are in an era of social media and, you know, phones that record and things like that. So maybe it's just a perception. Have police killings of civilians, regardless of race, like been holding steady at a steady rate and we're just learning more about it because of all sorts of cameras? Or has there been a spike, let's say, in the last 20 years? I haven't looked at the uniform crime report, but that is all public record that's tracked by the FBI. So you can look that up. It's not something that is new. They have been happening for years. And I know. Mhmm. I can tell you that since in the seventies, it was much higher than it is now. It has helped me probably in the last 15 years, roughly a 1000 killings per year, but that was probably 5 times higher, back, in 50 years ago. So they may Thank no. Thank you for sharing that. Because, again, I always know that the perception because everything like, everywhere you go now, you're being taped somewhere that I was just like, maybe it's just it appears that there's more. Not saying that it's okay or not okay or anything of that sort, But I'm like, maybe it's a perception thing, but because now you can't walk down the street without being on someone's street camera that it feels like there's more than there's always been. I mean, the Washington Post has the database that goes back quite a way, and this is journalists verifying individual ins instances. But that's where I get that understanding from. But it is it is kind of been steady for quite a while now. You know? And I don't know what that means, but even what before and after cameras. You know? So Marcus, would you as you think about kind of your future, I don't know what your background family life is. I don't know if you're married, or you have kids or one day wanna have kids. You know, you have acknowledged that bias exists. Right? And last time, you also acknowledge that if it exists, it probably exists some places in the in the police force, not everywhere, not everybody. And maybe not even maybe not even, you know, different sometimes between some, you know, black police officers or white police officers as we saw. I mean, who knows the degree to which race played a role in that incident. Would you, being a police officer, would you give the talk to your kids about how would you worry about some police officer not showing using reasonable use of force? And would you worry it worry about it more because your child would be black? Like, would that be a consideration for you? Honestly speaking, yes. I would probably give my child that talk. Okay. But I would also give them the talk that they are to be respectful. Yeah. That they will go out the same as my mom and dad did. You act like you have some home training, and you represent this household accordingly, and you represent it well, and you do not bring shame to the family. Mhmm. But, yes, I would have to talk with them. Mhmm. And I guess how so there's the broader question that Maren asked just about the approach of police regardless of the color of the victim, right, or perpetrator, depending on how you look at it, right, or what the case is. And I guess, what do you think it seems sometimes, and I whether or not it happens more, the fact that it happens means it's an issue to improve, meaning unreasonable use of force. Right? Absolutely. What do you what do you think is behind the instinct in those cases when it seems like the action of a civilian leads to a level of force that that that doesn't seem equivalent to the potential harm that could exist. But I don't know what it's like to be a cop, So I don't know if there's an if there's a quickness because of a fear, or I don't really know what it's what it's like, but, but in those cases, what and then how does that play out differentially in your mind? Because you would have the talk based on race. What's your what's your sense of it as a as a cop? I think that all of us as humans, we are imperfect people, and there are lack lacks or errors in judgment per se. And so you can assess the situation completely wrong, or you could just be dead as wrong and wanting to use excessive force. Each situation is completely different, but it's an error in judgment. And you act unaccordingly, and you screw it up. I can't sit here and tell you that I've always made the right judgment. I haven't done anything just outwardly crazy that would be the equivalent of anything that we've seen on TV or the media. But it's basically us as a profession holding each other accountable. Yes. De- escalation techniques should be taught. Yes. We are to be gatekeepers or bystanders and make sure that our counterparts are acting accordingly and that we hold them accountable. So we do receive that training. But at the same time, I think there is a huge misconception with the where society is trending on what police action should be. Everyone wants to be an expert in the subject matter. Everyone thinks that they know best that it's the training, and they need more training, or they need this, or it should be handled this way, or it should be handled that way. And, like, they have no idea. None. Educate us. Educate us. That's why I wanted you here. But you just have a misconception of what reality actually is. And so I know in the first conversation, Marion talked about pouring resources into, like, the south side of Chicago and taking that money away from the police and pouring it into education or programs to uplift the community. But here we go again, twofold. Why is there a need or propensity for police to have to be in that community in those numbers? Why do we have communities with homes that have burglar bars on? That's why the police are there in mass numbers because crime is rampant. So you can't just defund the police and pour resources into these programs. And it's probably gonna sound really callous to say, but you can pour money into these areas. You can whatever the case may be, whatever you think the best approach is. But unless someone has the mindset to accept it or per se, as Susan says, pull themselves up by their bootstraps, you have to be mentally able to accept it and move past what you know. So that's why I'm saying it's taught. It's learned. People don't know what they don't know. And, yes, if you can reach one person, excellent. Well, I'm all for it. But I also think you're always gonna have a section of society that is there because that's all they know. And they have no reasoning or mental capacity to even want to change the situation, if that makes sense. What are I don't say that to sound callous, but it is what it is. I guess what I'm just trying to channel what I that I would imagine someone might say, and who might even agree with what you with what you just said. I guess someone might wonder, is some of is some of you don't know what you don't know a plant that was that was seeded in the past or not seeded. Right? So, like, are we if we're not investing in in in people to see other possibilities, right, are we just setting it up to continue in the same way where you still need the police resources? Like, is this an issue of trying to transition to a different reality, but still needing to you still have the consequences of lack of investment in the in the past. Right? And maybe what you're saying, Marcus, is don't take away from one and put it into the other. Maybe you're saying we need both. Maybe you're saying we still need opportunity because there was lack of investment. People don't have those other the sense of other opportunities, and you can't just ignore that as a reality. But I think what the other side fears or gets concerned about is, but if you're just pouring into police, you're solving old problems and you're not investing in new solutions. So you don't get a batch of people 10 years from now who you need to guard who you need to protect against again. And so I don't and so more so Go ahead, Marcus, please. More so we live in a microwave society. So the notion is defund the police and fund this. Well, if you defund the police solely to fund this, there's gonna be a lack in public safety. Yeah. So maybe you fund this, and maybe that's gonna put you in a deficit, or it's gonna be hard to fund it initially. But if your program succeeds, then you can start pulling funds from here. But you can't completely defund 1 to the point that you're sacrificing public safety because it's funded to this level for a reason. But when did you tie it back to history, which is how I made the transition to policing? Because I'm deeply interested in. When do you stop using the historical operating model of what's always happened for locality and start doing something new. So maybe I accept what you're saying. Maybe defund the police is not the answer, but the current operating model is also giving the perception of devastation. Right? It's just not working. So, you know, would I where do the police become adaptable to begin to try new operating models? What about the current model is not working? Well, when to quote a study that I recently heard. So, like, Mary was talking about with respect to the deaths of all races, you know, that is sort of, you know, at a steady state. I think Landon spoke to that. However, there are situations when you have nonlethal force applied disproportionately to black people. And so there so maybe shootings are not occurring with some sort of racial bias, but the use of use of force or, in general over policing, there is some undercurrent of that. Right? And that's not working because that's all that doing all that's doing is feeding the negative tension to, to encounter, to create those situations when you stop a person for their tags. They come at you hard, and they start insulting you, etcetera. Right? That that's not a terrible situation. We can't all this can't be the okay corral where we're all with guns, and I'm just gonna shoot you, you shoot me, etcetera. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was gonna say, like, even now, I was of the of the belief of people are stopped by the cops and they run. They must like, why are you running if you've done nothing wrong? I definitely was of that in that camp probably as soon as 2 or 3 years ago. But again, you know, now this this is why I asked the question about, you know, police, you know, killings, if they are trending up or not because it feels like it is. And I am now of the camp where I understand a person running out of fear for their life. Just period. You know, before even figuring out if they're being stopped for their tags or because they are, you know, they resemble a suspect of something. And, you know, is that now being taken into consideration that a lot of times people's reaction now is not necessarily defensiveness because they've done something wrong or they know they're in the wrong, but just out of fear. I think there is a very extremely small percentage of police contacts that go awry to that level. There are millions, millions of contacts with police that go perfectly fine. But because of social media and everything being amplified and put in your face, now it just seems as if it's the wild west, and all the police are doing is out here beating and killing people. Well, I don't wanna say that, but and I wanna bring Susan and Landon into this too, because this is your country, and this is your local law enforcement policing your neighborhoods as well. But there are social scientists who have studied and seen that that not that it's the wild west, but there is a disproportionate amount of force, not necessarily lethal, applied to black people. And, again, that's why I'm saying that police forces should look like the communities that they serve. So in the first conversation, I think I briefly spoke on what it feels like to be a black cop and how I'm treated by the community. You should want to see me there. Well, I don't wanna see you there if you were also gonna apply lethal for, I mean, force to me. Like, I mean, I accept what you're saying, but I also feel that the lack of humanity cons you know, human consideration is happening with police irrespective of the race of the officer. No. I see what I think I get what you're saying, Andre, in terms of if one of the benefits or one of the alleged benefits or proposed benefits of having a more diverse police force is that you are more likely to relate to and or understand or and or, you know, kind of calm and deescalate situations because you can relate to, you know, the person being stopped or anything of that sort. That's one thing. But if it feels like, oh, you're just falling in line with all the other cops and treating me the same way, like, now what? But that goes back to assumptions. Mhmm. Yeah. You feel you feel, Marcus, that that in your experience, on average, not you know, there's, of course, exceptions to this, but on average, you feel like a, like, a black law enforcement tends to be more conscious of how they treat a black civilian versus a white civilian. That it's not to say they can't have their own biases, but maybe some of those biases would be in general, on average, less than a white police officer, for instance, even if there are exceptions, you know, like a like a Tyre Nichols kind of incident. Is that being that what your sense is or your experience? From an aspect of relatability, because although we are all more alike than we are different, there are cultural differences. So, yes, I'm going to understand a black person. If I go to a disturbance and it's between a wife and a husband and they're amped up, yeah. Absolutely. I'm gonna be able to relate to them more and converse with them in a manner better than one of my white counterparts. Yes. Because I understand them culturally. The way we talk is different. The way we communicate is different. Our mannerisms are different. Yes. We're all human. We're alike. We have more similarities, but there are small little nuances that are different amongst us. And, yes, I'll understand them better. Susan and Landon, you both brought up in kind of the after con after conversation talk with Andre and I that you had a particular interest in in this conversation around police community relationships. How do you take all this in, and what are you what are your thoughts? What are you curious about? Yeah. I often wonder, I think there are valid studies that indicate that if you take, go to a city, take, instances that happen that are very, very similar to each other, and the only thing different is race. So you isolate the racial variable across multiple cities. What you find is that the killings, black people are not killed at different rates, but they are subjected to higher force. There's more use of force. If, you know, that's as close as you can get to an answer, I think, to these studies, right, to control all of the because there's so many variables, including race that are happening, at these at these things. Right? That's my understanding as it is right now. But then I wonder, like, when you extract race from the equation, you know, you have the very geographical effects. You have, you know, higher criminality in certain black populations in males, especially. Does that lead to higher frequency of encounters? Does that lead to differences in the nature of the encounters? Do the cops feel I'll ask you, Marcus. Do the cops feel a little bit more danger from, a black male on average, in those stops, does that lead to them overcorrecting and have higher use of force? I would I'd like to know what goes through a cop's mind in assessing risk. You know? That hasn't been my personal experience. I can say, do I believe there have been times where I've been on a scene with one of my counterparts, and I thought that they perceive a black male as more dangerous or aggressive than he actually was. Yeah. Yes. When I step in those instances, I'm just not standing idly by. So it has to be you being there that saves something potentially, you know, severely discriminatory for happening. Right? Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. But at the same notion, when you take criminal histories and past behaviors and contacts into context, then yeah. I mean, that all plays a pivotal part in it. Are we just out here pulling over Andre and automatically assuming that he's aggressive or he's a threat? No. That hasn't been my experience. No. Susan, just No. I just have a thought. I think it's I think it's unfair to put all of this on any disparities or that are in we're talking about here. I it's unfair to put that on the backs of cops specifically because there's a structure above them and around them. There's a whole justice system and local governments that impose certain things and I'm familiar. Processes that just can put certain people and minorities, blacks in certain communities. I think that's happened in Ferguson that there was just a just a horrible vicious cycle of putting people through, you know, a minor some minor infraction that just keeps escalating into something just worse and worse and worse because they can't respond to it in a way that they need to because of their situation. And they just get caught up in this this assistance. Amplify that point, Susan? Because I think you're making a very important point. There is a structure that is, you know, outside of cops. That's why I often refer to local law enforcement as the gatekeepers of the rule of law, and you have the criminal justice system. The criminal justice system is also very financially burdensome. And now this motivation, I'm not gonna get into, but it is. And oftentimes, you can be an offender because you're unable to meet the financial obligations of have of going through the criminal justice system. So crime and possibly this is all as a deterrent, but crime for certain people, especially if you are already socioeconomically disadvantaged like Mary was talking about, we need to use a little bit of that lens of history just to tie the conversation together, then you are gonna be a recidivist crimping. If you don't pay your warrants, you go into jail. So on Marcus' little computer, when they be in a little cruiser, your name doesn’t pop up. Oh, this this person has warrants. That's why in some place they have Warren amnesty day where you just go in, like, look. What can we do so I can settle mine? So I'm not taking and just yanked off the street. And that's why and, you know, some and when you already have, you know, police officers that are in neighborhoods looking for criminality, because that is part of their job, and then you have the burden of the criminal justice system, then it seems as though when you stop, you know, black males that they are more part are more likely to participate in criminality. I'm not saying that for some that's not the case, but other but there is an element of just the burden of going through the criminal justice system that could be disproportionately odorous vis a vis the crime that you committed. Yeah. I think you put that right That you're getting engaged Andre, you're saying you're getting it you're getting engaged disproportionately in a way that that then becomes kind of a cycle of contact and maybe sometimes And I'm also saying that part of what keeps part of the grease of that cycle is the financing that it takes to go through the criminal justice system. So go going to court costs money. Tickets cost all these things cost money. And when you ain't got no money or you when you have to know when you paying your baby mama's rent or this or these, you know, taking care of your warrants, then and for a lot of people, it comes down to something like that. Not everybody is sitting in homes in this, you know, cool and or showing up in court. Just Or showing up in court because you can't get off. And so I'm saying that part of the grease of that sort of vicious cycle is the financial aspect of it. And it can make it seem as though that there's an element of, you know, black people who are just they're just prone to criminality. They're just bad, v a d, when there is a lot more lens and nuance at play. So it's disproportionate because of disenfranchisement. And That is definitely a contributing factor. I but I don't I don't wanna take away from Susan what Susan said, because I'm not trying to put all of it on any one thing. I just wanna make sure that the group is aware of the diversity of what's required when you get caught up in the criminal justice system. I That's really good. That's really strong, Andre. I and I'm not I wasn't aware of that, I guess, or thought of that as a factor, but that makes a lot of sense to me. And, you know, you know, I would say that the shootings that have come through social media have increased a lot of people's awareness, and that led to some good things, some reforms that really do make sense. It's just that they needed some, you know, some extra energy to actually make it happen. Right? Absolutely. There had to be a catalyst, and that that's not to say that, you know, it doesn't have some downsides as well. Right? But, you know, I would like to see some energy injected into that aspect of things as well and appreciate it a little bit better. I think could do a lot of good. I'm also kind of sorry. We're just framing every question to Marcus in terms of him being a cop. I mean, that act that's I mean, I'm sorry about that, Marcus, though. I want Okay. You know, you don't know I see You gotta you gotta bear the burden, Marcus. Can take this. Okay. Sorry. Yeah. I it's I find your place in society, Marcus, very I have a lot of empathy. I really do, you know, because I know that you have expressed the idea that you understand that a, on average, not with every situation, that a black person is gonna get less grace. And, you know, in interactions with the law enforcement, that grace has a can have a bigger consequence. Even if it's just even if it's not a shooting, even a higher-level force, that's a that's a consequence. It's an experience, a negative experience with people you think are supposed to protect you, you know. And so, you know, I, you know, I feel this tension in me experiencing the tension in you, you know, really. I mean, I understand I mean, you play a role, you know, you and your fellow colleagues play a role. You do play an important role, a foundational role, safety. You know, we don't have a society in order to society if we don't have safety. Mhmm. You know? And it's so important, you know, but then when, you know, when I hear you say things about, like, soft on crime, and I hear you, you know, soft on, like, crimes that are gonna lead to someone else getting hurt, you know, we gotta guard against that. But then I hear soft on crime, well, what about those times when someone didn't get the benefit of the doubt? They didn't get grace. And now they're a part of a system, you know, that might take them in a direction that that isn't a productive one. And I don't know how to solve that tension, but I feel empathy in the same way that Susan does that, you know, you must feel like it's on like, you bear the burden of this tension because of the role that you have. And the funny thing is I can go to work Yeah. And I'm answering questions on, well, why are the black people like this? And why is it this? And why do black people feel this way? And then I get off work, and it's, why are the cops like this? And why do the cops do this? I'm just like, Jesus Christ. Tell them to watch the show. That's really interesting. You're like the middleman in between these two worlds trying to share understanding, because place. The place that you sit. But why does that respond to you? Do they listen to you? Like, do you do you feel like when you explain give an understanding of where parts of the black community's hearts and minds are and what they experience that might be valid in in generating such do you feel like you get understanding on the other side? Or I think so for the most part. Even when it comes to Black Lives Matter? Yes. I try to make it relatable. Mhmm. Now whether they leave agreeing or not. Yeah. And, again, we already have the conversation on how I feel about it, but I'm not oblivious to why people feel that way. So I just try to make it understood of why it is what it is. So do you think there's anything positive in the message? Go ahead. Sorry. The last question, and then, Marion, you jump in. Do you think there's anything positive in the message of Black Lives Matter? Put aside Oh, absolutely. Okay. So you see the value in it. You see the value in this idea of black lives are worthy of caring and dignity. You might have a difference in approach of how they approach expressing that or wanting to change, but you see you see the value you see the value in it. Sorry, Marin. Absolutely. But because I just feel and, again, there are some justified instances where people have unfortunately been killed. But I don't think society is trending in a direction where they accept that, where they acknowledge it because they don't think the police should ever be out here shooting people, if that makes sense. So yeah. Sorry, Maryann. You were gonna No. I was, so I was gonna say with all this work. I don't recall you telling us, Marcus, like, were you always interested in being a police officer? Like, what led to you pursuing that line of work again? And I'm just viewing this in the context of everything you shared about being a black police officer. And I know we've talked before about the grumblings of, you know, what many in the black community think about the cops I'm interested in your pursuing that line of work. So as a kid, I kind of wanted to do it. When I graduated high school, I went to college, and I completely shied away from it. I went to college as a business major, and I wanted to be in business and accounting. And then somewhere along the way, it just piqued my interest again. I changed my major back to criminal justice. What I really wanted to do is when I graduated, I wanted to go into probation or parole, but I couldn't find a job because I didn't have any case management experience. And so I took a job with a nonprofit doing hurricane Ike recovery after hurricane Ike to get that case management experience. And then when I got laid off from that job, I just had this thought, like, I'm gonna go to the police academy. Well, I actually got laid off, and I didn't get a severance package. So all the money that I had saved, I was using to live on. And I couldn't even pay for the police academy. And so I went to my church, and I asked for help. And my church actually cut the check for me to go to the police academy. So I didn't get I didn't get hired on and sent to the academy for my job. My church paid for it. And then I applied with the department that I'm at now, and I got the job. So the reason I wanted to go into law enforcement is because I genuinely had an interest in helping and being a good role model for my community. Growing up in my hometown, although it was very diverse, there was only one black cop in the whole town. And I really, really looked up to him, and I recalled going to a football game. And I got into it with someone, and I was being disrespectful. And I was cussing and acting a fool. And I just remember him walking up behind me and grabbing my shoulder. And he was like, what would your dad say if he knew you was out here talking like that? And the next day, he showed up to my house, and he told on me. And I was just like, man, are you serious? So I always just looked up to him, and I don't know. That was just I never had a bad experience with the police, and I just kinda defaulted back on it and thought that it would be something that would be good if I did my part too. I mean, I love that story so much for so many reasons from the church paying for it to all of that. But even what you just described there, I've always said, you know, things would be so much better if, you know, when we get into, like, cops knowing the people or living in the communities that they police, because there is something to be said of, you know, you see, you know, a kid, you know, out there acting a fool, whatever, and be like, that's Marcus's kid. Just go get him and take him home. Right? You know? Just the story. Go get him home. Like, I know his dad. Like, that's so much better than a lot of, you know, what we see nowadays. And to a certain extent, like, in suburban Dallas, that's what I grew up with. It was you know, my brother's best friend's dad was, like, pretty high up in the Arlington Police Department. And, yeah, he'd be like, I got him. That's Mike's son. You know? I think I think the hard thing is the perception is mostly negative, and you don't see the humanity in police. And you never ever so often, you will hear about the nice things that they've done or, but you don't see the day to day of it. So it's tiring because you go out and you do these good deeds, and you can encounter a homeless person and go get them a room or buy someone's food that they were stealing from the store or it's just countless things that you never ever hear about. Mhmm. But every day is, like, the police are this. The police are that. Boom. Boom. Boom. And it's it just it's exhausting. I'm telling y'all seriously. It's very tiring. So Andre, how does that all sit with you? Because I know you have feelings about have had feelings about the police. Oh, you're questioning me now. Yeah. No. Just because I know you. I know how much this I know how much you feel about this. How do you feel hearing Marcus's story and knowing that there are Marcus's out there in the police force? Like, what does that do for you? Well, mark number 1, Marcus, thank you for sharing that. Because in the years that I've known you, I don't think I've ever quiet, known the tale of how you came into this line of work. How that sits with me, it sits just fine. And I what you know, to quote Mary Anne Williamson, the only thing missing is what you're not giving. Right? And so as a community, what we feel is lacking from the police, I. E. Maybe support, we need to give that. And also from, the police officers, I would counsel you, remember your story. Remember when you wanted, and you didn't have or when you didn't have the awareness that were there were people there to educate you. Remember, baby? Sorry. I don't sometimes I get like that. Remember, sir, that, you know, there was once time when you had the awareness and you were popping off at the mouth, and someone either gave you that grace or and that officer helped you. Right? So that's part of the fullness of humanity that we've all been talking about, and those lenses and how every lens is valid in the history. Because, you know, as you I'll be perfectly honest. You know, I just don't I'm starting not to see segregation in history. I'm starting to see Susan's history as a white woman, Maren's history as a black woman, my history as a gay black man, Landon's history, and all of you as our own personal stories. And meaning, I'm a part of all of it because we're all a part of humanity. And, you know, how we and to tie back to Todd and his very, very inspiring story with his foster daughter and his and the child that he has with his wife, you know, and he was telling me, and Todd always melts me because I try to be all hard, and then he'll tell a story. And I'm like, oh. Marcus seems pretty good at it too, though. That was Marcus is good at it. And I just want to say, like, can we just remember that, you know, when because tonight when Todd is going to rock his black foster daughter to sleep, when Marcus may go to work in a few days and he encounters that person who doesn't have that awareness, and maybe they are popping off with the mouth and they have warrants. Or, you know, for everyone else on the phone, just please remember that. That's why I pray, you know, very hard. I'm someone who believes in the Lord, and I pray very hard that this makes it out there because that's the that's the awareness. So it sits with me just fine, and I just implore Marcus to remember the awareness of love and humanity 360. Have a wonderful time. And you guys, I just feel connected to you. So, you know, this is great. I love you guys. I feel the same. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. You're creating this space and opportunity, Todd and I'm Jay. Looking forward to the next round of videos. Sounds good. Thank you all. Thank you all for joining us. It means a lot to us, and, it was very fulfilling to hear the conversation, and thanks for sharing. Look. I'm a throw it out there. Hopefully, we can do it again. I know. I'm I'll ping you. I'll ping y'all. I would love it. I feel a third conversation and also because I did not I did not, make good on my word to Susan that we were gonna get back to meritocracy. So I feel personally obliged to make that the first conversation in our 3rd conversation. So I am sorry, Susan. I thought we would wrap up and move on, but I think it was the conversation was wonderful. So, hopefully, you're okay with it, Susan. Oh, yeah. Hope you guys enjoy the party. What's that? I hope you guys enjoy the party. Yeah. Yep. Oh, we will. We will. In Vegas. No party too late. We will because there'll be dignified. So now it will be so bad if he sees me, it'll be a little bit debaucherous. So let’s go. Let's go. We think we'll all have a good time. Yes. Have fun. Alright, y'all. Have a wonderful evening. Enjoy your evening. Bye. Bye. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingrayshow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingrayshow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. Especially since you were talking about a feeling of lack of support as a Black police officer from the Black community, how do you manage that duality of being an officer of the law, being an authority figure, but also with, what feels like venomous relationship blacks have with the police right now? Having to also want to be a part and fit in into the black community. How do you deal with these variables? To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling Healing Race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.