How Far Have We Come on Race: The Buffalo Shooting

Is it possible that you live in a more secure America than your mom when she grew up or your grandparents or your great grandparents? And that the way they had to contend with their environments might not be the way you have to contend with your environment even if it's not devoid of racism and its acts of violence or and other acts of discrimination? Well, it's hard to answer yes to that question given the events of last given the events in Buffalo. What I wanna preference is something that is not really as prevalent with other minorities. Black people, many of us have died very public deaths like what happened in Buffalo. One of the tactics of keeping black people, quote, unquote, in their place or in their role or occupying a certain level is to make examples through the deaths of black people, how they were murdered, the fact they were murdered, and be as public about it as possible. That's why lynchings had parties where the hundreds of people would come and watch a black person get lynched. So this so it's when you use the word stories in history, that sounds abstract. And what I want to emphasize to you, given the events in Buffalo, is the concreteness of the deliberate to make it public. There's a reason that perpetrator live streamed it to make it public. We die in public ways to send a message and still do. I'm gonna need a drink after this conversation. Did not like notes because you because I'm holding back tears as you Yeah. Like yeah. I apologize for interrupting you, but this is really heavy stuff for me. It really this is really this is really heavy stuff. This is these are lives. Yeah. You know, it's and I know I may get flagged for because this will be made public, but it's the life of that 18-year-old who was radicalized. It was the life of the people who were taken, whose lives are no longer here on earth with us, who are now our angels. And it is the life of those that they left behind who now have to make sense of their world without the loved one in it. Yeah. You know, like, this is just it's 360 devastation. And it's the life, which you're not including yourself, it's the life of those who are impacted and feel a greater sense of fear or just a continuation of the fear of, you know, could that one day be me. Right? And, honestly, like, you know, because I was thinking about this before we started, you know, filming today. You know? Because I'm I like I cook a lot and cooking more about that later, but I cook a lot. So I'm always in the grocery store, and I'm like, you are so vulnerable in that moment because I'm like, I'm not thinking about a shooter or a diet. I'm like, am I forgetting something? What do I want for dinner today? Don't wanna try a vegan recipe, but I'm tired. I won't try anything new. And he really did catch people at their most vulnerable. And Saturday what day is Saturday? Running errands. You know, people running errands are out and about. Like, you're just living your day-to-day life. The events of last week definitely have made me much more aware, not just in grocery stores, but in public spaces in general. And so now I can just I just have a sense of getting in and getting out or minimizing the amount of time that I'm in some sort of vulnerable position in public. Do you have any concern in your heart, in your mind around your response empowering these acts? In what way? Well, by having the effect that they are perhaps intentionally trying to have among members of the black community. Well, I don't see how they couldn't. Like, I honestly don't see how you how you couldn't see some something like that. And so some people so my response of being of being fearful for public life safety in public and getting in and getting out, I think number 1, that's a natural response. And for people who would find that empowering, yes. What you did had its desired effect. But I will say that that the desired effect is not the end result. The end result is that especially let's take very concretely the great replacement theory. They want us out of here. Now my question to that is we're not going anywhere. Jews aren't going anywhere. Black people aren't going anywhere. We're I'm an American citizen. You're an American citizen. This is my country. This is all of our country, right, wrong, or crazy. And so and so you're in the short term. Yes. You had the desire effect of making me more aware. But in the long term, your message and your efforts are futile because we're not going anywhere. Like, I mean, what do you expect that all Jewish people and all black people gonna pack their suitcases and head back to some in their land where they all come from? No. We were born here. This is your country. This is my country. Yeah. We're not going anywhere. Yeah. My family has been in the state where I live for generations. So not only are we not going anywhere, but we’re also rooted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Literally, my family has lived in this state for generations. What I guess, what would it take for you to see events like happened but write them off as an unlikely event in your life. Todd, and that's where you and I differ. I just like, I because I have really meditated on this about you and it's I'll be quite I struggle with this in our friendship because I don't see why you're so casual about these things. And, like Yeah. How you take it? You think I'm casual about this? And maybe that's the wrong word. This is no. It's really important. No. It's important to hear this. I want you to I remember you I remember you have an uncle who's a rabbi. And I remember reflecting after our class filming a conversation. I'm like, I'm more like his uncle. Like, I'm more much more like his much more aware. Like, okay. This is a trend. And for me, I'm like, I guess, like, on guard, you know, just looking for the next event. And I'm will I be a part of the next event? So I, personally, I find it hard to see it as a one-off incident because I feel like at any point, I could've that could've been me. Who's to say that let's say I had family of, you know, in Buffalo, New York, and I was there visiting them for the weekend, and I could've been caught up in that. Like, to me, I guess, because the people who are perpetrating these crimes look like everyday people, and they are attacking everyday people. And I feel like I'm an everyday person, so it could happen to me too in anywhere. Yeah. I mean, a couple of things that you said. Well, let me just say first of all, I actually don't know how my how my uncle feels about whether he should feel threatened. But there are people in my in my social circle who as Jews do feel like we that Jews should be on guard. So that that is a very real thing. I feel like those people You feel you feel you resonate with that. I resonate with those people. Yeah. I don't want you to think that I'm giving short shrift to your feelings, and your concerns, about your safety. I take it actually very seriously if anything. And so or to the events that make you feel fearful that they're just, oh, small things, because they're not. I take them seriously. I still think that in the larger picture I don't know how many people how many how many people have been killed through racially motivated, mass shootings? Or they don't have to be mass shootings, racially motivated shootings. But my guess is that it's just like with Jews it's a pretty small number in that particular category. I could only speak for myself that you know as a Jew who has seen that there is violence perpetrated against Jews, I guess I I'm more on the ledger of like unlikely to happen to me, because of because of the rarity of it. Not that I don't think it's not problematic. Not that I don't think it needs to stop as you say. But just that I would have to see the magnitude get a lot greater and a lot more pervasive to feel like I am threatened in some way. And in the meantime, I don't know, that maybe that enables me to just, like, forget about it. I That being said. Yeah. Yeah. That being said, let me just finish this. Is, you know, I've thought a lot, I've meditated on why we have this difference in feeling as well. And I'm not in places of worship. Right? While some people might know the attributes of, like, a Jewish person and might be able to say, oh, he's definitely Jewish, it’s not the same as having black skin, darker colored skin. And so I don't know if I could be picked out, and maybe that's part of it. And so I'm not in the places that someone would target when they target Jewish people. I'm not someone I don't wear things that that, you know, I don't have. I don't wear a kippah, you know, or the black coat, you know, a black suit with, you know, white undershirt. I don't wear the things that would help someone to know that I'm that I'm Jewish and maybe people who do, you know, ought to ask me the question, like, if you did wear that, like, would you feel more threatened? And the true answer is I don't I don't know if I would. If I would, may I my thought is no, but maybe I'm wrong. Like, maybe if I was wearing that every day, and could be, you know, picked out, then I would feel differently. So there's other there are I just want to communicate that I understand there are differences that also could be factored into why the feel fear might linger for you and not for me around these around these incidents. So, I don't I don't want you to feel like I don't acknowledge those things, and how they might how they might play a role. I hear what you're saying about I'm not in the places that traditionally target, but what that can sound like to the people who are gonna see this on social media is that you live in a simulationless lifestyle, so I'm good. And all the rest of you don't live in a simulationless lifestyle, whether through dress or through physical appearance or whatever, then that's y'all. And I know that's not your motivation, but some people could say it like that. I think that's a really good a really good point we should take up but go to your second point. And the second point is for me, like the grandfather who put who took his grandchildren to the site and pulled them aside and had a conversation Yeah. To not heed that wisdom slash warning Yeah. For me is to contravene my ancestors, to contravene my granny, my grandfather, my great grandfather, my great granny, to contravene my mama, my daddy. People who were trying to tell me this is the world's whether right, wrong, or crazy, and whatever. The world's perception of you, these are the people who are in power, and these are the people who wants to have for you to have a certain reaction, and you may have to have that reaction just so you can stay alive. Yeah. Those are 2 super I won't contra I won't contravene that wisdom. Yeah. I don't think that should be a motivation to assimilate. Let me just say that. I don't think people should assimilate in order to not feel fear, from someone who might wish them harm. And I'm just acknowledging a reality that people who want to stay true to their whatever their heritage is, that's probably a concern that they have to feel. I'm just acknowledging it as a legitimate concern. Like, I think be who you are, be who you wanna be, and don't let if anything, actually, the person who says I I'm not going to assimilate in response to this person's action is almost in some sense saying the exact same thing I am, which is don't give in to these people. Like, don't assimilate just because it's gonna have you feel less fear because you'll blend in. Right? Don't let this person instill fear. Don't let this person make you be someone who's not true to who you are. So if anything, that motivation to not assimilate and be true to oneself or at least not assimilate for reasons that are not authentic, I would say their motivation is very similar to my motivation in not wanting to have these kinds of incidents to have broader effects on people. So I told me that about being gay. But don't the not to assimilate. I once made a I once was slash joking and serious. So I'm gonna leave the state because it's not very welcoming to gay people, and it was a gay couple that said, no. No. No. You're the kind of person that needs to stay. Like, you need to not assimilate and do exactly what you just said, and that's what will change hearts and minds. Don't give in to the people that want you to leave. Yeah. Yeah. So I so anyways, that's in terms of, like, where I stand on that. I it somewhat relates actually to your second point around, this feeling like in some ways you would go against your ancestors. Oh my god. We're just, like, re we're so, like, rehashing or going over this this this kind of parallel example of the black experience and the Jewish experience. Because I'm, like, now even though I'm talking about the black experience, I'm, like, I'm in my mind, I'm hearing the Jewish experience. I'm hearing all the prayers around how what happened in Egypt and what happened when the war torn in our temple and when so, you know, and obviously the holocaust. So let me say this. I think learning techniques to self-protect and wisdom passed on in how to protect oneself and how to be aware of one's surroundings are all important legitimate, teachings. My best friend sometimes jokes that black people and Jewish people are cousins. Because she says name one group of people that's cool with y'all is also cool with us. Like, we were cousins. Yeah. No. I mean, there's definitely parallels in our experience. So I take very seriously your, you’re bringing up this idea that, you know, we need to take heed and absorb the wisdom from past generations. There is a balance at the same time between wisdom generated during one time in one context and the way it applies to our current context. Mhmm. The old, you know, the old, you know, what is it? Story proverb, you know, whatever, whatever they're called of what is it? The making of meatloaf. Right? And the daughter is watching the mother, make the meatloaf and cuts off the two ends, right, and puts it in the oven. Right? And it's like, why you cut off the end? Well, my grandmother did it. Well, grandma, why did you cut off it? Well, my great grandmother did it. Well, why did she do it? And all of a sudden, you find out, right, that she cut off the ends because that's how it made it fit in the oven. Right? That was her context. You had to cut off the ends to make it fit, but now the oven is bigger. Right? And you don't have to cut off those ends anymore. And so and you can add an egg to keep it from drying out. I get it. Different context. Different context. And so my question would be the question that your comment would raise is what is the application of that wisdom in today's world that is different in the Jim Crow time, that is different in the slavery time, that while there are common threads, while these motivations still exist, and while they get acted upon, is still, we have to say, different from those times. And so how do we apply it now? But also a coded question. Also change with the time. So that that would, I guess, and this is tough, man. This is tough, like Well, the black community is struggling with it with black zillenials. So these black zillenials are ready. Like, it's not the same way we were in the sixties seventies and early eighties with sort of, like, slow change and all that. Uh-uh. These black zillenials hold us account. Like, we're I mean, there's a saying, this is not your father's civil rights movement. Like, they are like, we want we're not gonna wait 100 years just to get a little bit of rights. We want we want we want now, and there's no reason it shouldn't come to us, Which has some people in the black community feeling very uncomfortable because it's much more confrontational and ready for aggression than we were taught to sort of, like, you know, make inroads and present yourself in a certain way and negotiate and, like, why should I have to do that? I should be able to come with the full definition of what I call blackness and demand recognition as a whole being. Yeah. Yeah. I'm somewhere in between those, I think. Somewhere in between. Because I actually think I actually have seen this conversation bet between folks who grew up in the time of the civil rights era and younger, black, folks today and their conversation back and forth. I see the relevance, the wisdom from the pa I see the relevance of taking an approach that are is gonna build more allies than backlash, that create backlash. Right? Yes. That you don't wanna be not authentic, but you also wanna be effective. Right? Yes. And I hear, you know, I hear that wisdom loud and clear. And but I also hear, you know, younger folks saying, you know, you don't know You're like, you don't know what our younger generation is like. Like, we can be out there and bold and not have backlash and actually build community through that. And so there's always, like, this struggle in younger generations of saying, how do I respect what got passed down? But how do I do it in like a in a, you know, in a way that's applicable to today and is applicable to me as a human being today? So I would never ask you, Andre, to, what's the word, contravene, to conflict with, to contradict, to ignore or neglect the lessons that have been passed down. And I would just, you know, I would ask the question of, is there a different way that that might be applied in today's world? Is it possible that you live in a more secure America than your mom when she grew up or your grandparents or your great grandparents. And that the way they had to contend with their environments might not be the way you have to contend with your environment, even if it's not devoid of racism and its acts of violence or and other acts of discrimination? Well, it's hard to answer yes to that question given the events of last given the events in Buffalo, because similar I mean, when my grandparents when my parents were younger, like, you know, from a statistical basis, were they gonna lose their life due to some racist motivation more than likely not? But event those same events were happening. They have happened back then and were happening. So, I mean, just because I would say the garden has changed, doesn't mean that we have any weeds that are differently than what they were when we first planted the garden. So I would to me, I say no. I live in the same America. It's just now I live in an America with social media and all this other different stuff. So things that would have been highly obfuscated, like, for example, had, like, an Emmett Till or something happened during the day of social media, that would have been viral world war worldwide. It was I mean, for me, it was kind of the equivalent of our George Floyd, right, back then. Like, something so egregious that it's, you know, sparked a response from the world. But just like in the till happened, George Floyd happened. So we're still I feel like the garden yes. We may be in a different season, but the same weeds are in the garden. So you think there's the same wind up. Yeah. You think there's the same prevalence of weeds? Do you think there's the same level? Doesn't matter. Weed is insidious. Even if the weed has been cut down has been cut down, if you haven't extracted to use your parlance, the roots of it, the weed can still grow. Just give it time. Mhmm. You want to say that there's a weed that still exists, that's the same weed. And because it's not tended, you don't see because you don't see in your observation ways in which that garden is being tended enough to limit the growth and or try to get rid of the weed, you think that the protections are not there from that weed growing to an extent that would increase the probability of you being harmed in some way. Is that what is that the story that you're worried about happening? That that there's some weed, or do you think it already has grown to some to a large enough I mean, it depends on what part of the garden you're looking at. Right? So we so root system is that is just that a system. So we could be prevalent over here, but not so prevalent over there. But when you look at the garden as a whole, when you step back and say, okay. What's going on here? That's what I'm doing. I'm looking stepping back and say, okay. What's really going on here? And then I see the web where the weed is proliferated everywhere, maybe not to the same degree, but it's everywhere. And so I'm saying that, well, a garden that is not constantly tended will go to seed. And so in this garden of people's souls living in this country that we call the United States, we have to constantly tend that garden with respect to the weed of racism and of racism. And when we if we neglect any part of the garden, you can risk the entire garden going to seed and being taken over by the weed. Racism in what form or expressing itself in what way? Always. But let's to narrow to focus the conversation rather, we're talking about violent ways. Right? Because that's what was the catalyst for all of this. Right? Right. Right. Because and what I'm saying is that violent things happen in my grandmother's day, my grandparents' day, my Parents’ Day, and they're still happening in my day. Mhmm. And do you think the do you think the chance of that happening has large has do you think it's decreased over time? Do you think over what period of time do you think it's you see it as being at the same level and the same kind of prevalence across the country as was 50 years ago, a 100 years ago, a 150 years ago. Like I don't have a real sense of that because I live in a day of social media where when those things happen in the United States, they become very visible events. Right. And in my grandparents' day and in the day of my parents, they were much easier buried. Right? But what I will say is that the emotional message they're meant to send has never changed. So that's so that's exactly what I'm trying to kinda grapple with here is the role of social media magnifying the extent to which any given person, black person across the country might be threatened by the message, right, that is being sent, is the way that social media and media generally, but just social media has a magnified effect, is its power to, to spread, to magnify the perceived extent of a problem and to provoke the strong emotions, that create a response to that problem. Like, is it implicated in how kind of broad or vast you think this problem how broad you I don't even wanna say think because you just answered you don't know. Right? We don't know. I don't know. I don't know how it compares to 50, 100, 150 years ago. So I'll say the extent to which you feel that you could be I like the unity word. We use awareness. So to answer your question, it does heighten the awareness of the perceived problem, probably more so than it did in, past in past generations just because that magnifying glass of social media didn't exist. So is there a greater awareness? Yes. Of course. Because now, instantly, we can zap anything around the world. Yes. But is that the problem in and of itself? I don't think so. And is that a bad thing? Not necessarily. Because the greater awareness of something being or an injustice or to use my analogy, the weed, at some point, someone's gonna say, well, I'm just tired of this, and we need to do something about it. So I see the social media. I understand, like, the broader point you're making that it is that is it does serve as a magnifying glass, heightening the awareness of what we're calling a problem, what I definitely call a problem. But in with that heightened awareness, it's a good thing because it's forcing people to decide what are you gonna do about it. Right? Totally. And I way yeah. Go ahead. No. Go ahead. This is the same way that alleged perpetrator used their life in order to, you know, cause the incident in Buffalo. It I mean, when you're come when you're sitting there watching a video of something completely just in just, it makes you, like, what whether it's against whether it's about race or gender, etcetera, it does beg the question, like, this isn't right. And what am I gonna do about it? Like, it does people, you know, not necessarily what am I gonna do right now, but if this if this kind of thing crosses my path, it does ask yourself, you know, how would I respond? Yeah. Just so what you just brought up, I think, is also a really powerful point in, because I don't want people to think that my pushback against the I don't I don't wanna say I'm pushing back against your response because I, again, I see it as a natural response. But my, you know, asking questions into and wishing that that that response and its effects on your personal life weren't so great. Right? That that so that's the thing that I wish were not so. But to your point about the motivation to change it as an issue, I have seen people use the lack of prevalence of these things in terms of the magnitude of the actual lives that it affects as a reason to push back on why we should really be focusing on it. Right? Mhmm. Mhmm. And so you're bringing up, hey. Social media is a net positive by bringing broader awareness and inspiring action. I don't think we should need to take action just because something isn't happening in every community across United States. Like you said, these were lives that were lost. These are families that are affected. These are communities that are impacted. And so that to me and it's something to your point of the weed, this kind of we're being replaced in some way and people getting animated by that, and kind of brought into this this, you know, conspiracy theory of the way that the world is working. That's a weed that's growing. It's a dangerous weed to you to you to your point. And so I am not meaning to say that this that our reaction should be muted such that we don't feel motivated to take action on the issue. My main concern is individuals feeling fearful in their lives thinking, you know, because of it could happen to me. Right? And so I need to be on guard no matter where I go. Mhmm. That's the worry that I have. Not that this is magnifying awareness and thus building motivation hopefully for change. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open, real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingrayshow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. -As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. -For your experiences too. Because we have to understand, I don't know life from a white perspective. I don't know Like I said, it's the one thing that black people can't buy is that white skin. I don't So, I don't know what it's like to walk-through life and because to walk through life with the kind that kind of support. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not gonna say privileged because not every white person is privileged and there are many white people who have worked very hard for this Yeah. The achievements that they have. Yeah. But there is there are institutions there is a paradigm of thought that supports white people. Yeah. And I don't know what it's like to have that support. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing