Is Discussing Racial Bias Too Uncomfortable for White Americans?

Thank you for joining this episode of Healing Race. In previous episodes, Todd and I shed light on our different upbringings and the role that race played in those upbringings. In this episode, Andre asked me when I first became aware of systemic bias against members of the black community. And I share the first time I heard someone in my social network express support for discriminatory practices as well as the first time I saw firsthand how people from different races and ethnicities can experience very different living conditions in their neighborhoods. We also discussed whether a desire for psychological safety makes white Americans not wanna think about or engage on issues of race and the risks more generally of not discussing and dealing with issues that we simply can't avoid. So let's get to that conversation now. Enjoy. When were you first aware of systemic bias against Black people in this country? There were two experiences that I can remember that made besides Rodney King, that made me kinda realize something's wrong, like something's off, or that made me take a point of view at the very least. One was and I'm not gonna you know, in confidence to family, which I know you feel you wanna do as well. I'm not gonna say who it was, but let's just say someone in the family network brought up his support for, racial profiling, in terms of, like, people driving and that, you know, they were okay with it. And I just could not believe it. Mhmm. But it had me for the first time think, wow. Mhmm. First of all, people have points of view Mhmm. That are clearly supportive of some kind of discriminatory practice Mhmm. Mhmm. That are just, to me, unfair on its face. I mean, even with the argument of, like, oh, it's proportional to the amount of crime, and we can get all into, well, why is crime disproportionate? You know, you know, I don't even wanna, you know, I don't think we need to go into the technical details of that, but let's even give that give them that. It does not give any kind of right, I don't think, to profile a human being who you do not know and assume their guilt, assume a pop up a probability of guilt. And that was the first time I it hit me not just I mean, clearly, it came up because it was being debated in the, probably, local area or state or country. I don't remember. But it was part of the political conversation at that time. So not only the awareness that that's actually a debate, but the idea that someone in my network who I would just assume to have a fair stance and to be a good-hearted person Mhmm. Would carry a belief that would perpetuate some kind of discrimination. Mhmm. That was the first time where I had to come face to face with and just acknowledge or just understand that this those ideas existed like this. Mhmm. And that if ideas existed, then policies existed and or at least policies were supported and could potentially become active. So that was my first, I mean, my first kind of more guttural experience of the differences of realities was actually in sports. We went to play, you know, we would travel to play soccer, and we went to a lower socioeconomic area, and it was an area that was primarily black and Hispanic. Mhmm. And so I remember in the experience of, you know, my parents drove me home and their feeling of concern about being in the area. Mhmm. No. I mean, the reality might be that there was more crime. I certainly did not feel unsafe. I could see that there was a difference in the neighborhoods, and it was stark. It hit me, you know, you know, I it made me feel bad about it. Like, it made me feel bad that there were, like, if I look at the place where I'm from and I look at what, at least, it looks like here in terms of amenities, like, it did not seem right that there were those disparities. The fields that we played on in soccer over there were bumpy. I mean, it was you know, you could just you I just I had the first experience of inequity in that way. Yeah. People are living in different realities by no choice of their own. Certainly, you know, people make choices. I'm not saying people but, you know, if I especially think of the kids, they didn't choose to be born in that area, and then their parents were probably kids born in that area, and then their kids where you know? So and even if they weren't born in that area, they were born somewhere, most likely born somewhere that didn't have the kind of supports that we've talked about. Right? And so there's a chain of, yes, there's a chain of people taking action on their experience, but there's also a chain of what they what they were just given by being born in a particular place as a as a particular person. Yeah. And that on its face just seemed not right. And so that was my first time in understanding not, like, policy that was racially biased, but real living conditions being disparate, and the feeling that someone has, not about just being in a place, but I probably in some unconscious way project it onto the people in that place. And I can imagine the human mind going to, okay, this place feels dangerous. It's mostly made up of people who are of, you know, people of color, you know, Black and Hispanic, Spanish speaking. So, you know, I can imagine the association created in the mind even if unconsciously and unintentionally. So those were, I think, the first experiences that I had that indicated to me that there were different kinds of lives that people lived and that in some way there were there were ideas out there about different people, and that these were based on characteristics that didn't seem fair to, you know, different to use as a way of differentiating people and their value. So especially when you talk about, you know, the soccer going to the soccer fields in the lower income neighborhoods. And you know, race not really being, you know, a part of the conversation as you were growing up, etcetera. And this was, you know, it was a shock in that moment with respect to being hit in the basketball. I kinda wanna tie all that together. Yeah. Do you feel because I wonder whether there is this sense of psychological safety that white people have so that if I don't associate; if I don't engage in my mind with respect to racial strife and racial conflict, etcetera, and I just remain in this sort of world that I have architected for myself, then I'm safe. So I wanna know I guess I'm asking the question. Do you feel that there's a contingent of white people who don't engage in the rhetoric around these things or because it's psychologically uncomfortable for them. So when you have to when you when a person has to acknowledge there is an issue, the other side of that coin is, well, you need to be a participant in doing something about it. So if I don't acknowledge that something is a real issue or that it even exists, then there's no imperative on my part to help in solving a problem. So I really wanna explore psychological safety. Does that relate to can you, I'm happy to answer the question on its face, but just to help me understand a little bit of your thinking. How do you relate that to the story about the soccer field and that's at lower socioeconomic Through your parents. I can explain it through your parents. So the idea came into my mind when you said, or at least maybe related that your parents felt they were in an unsafe neighborhood by virtue of just the physical surroundings. Sounds like you guys were in a car. You were driving. Yeah. And the only thing you could judge were the physical surroundings. And yeah. And because the neighborhood was starkly different from maybe what you are used to, and it was Yeah. Maybe it was sort of, like, not as nice. Yeah. There's a there I think there's a little context around that that I should probably explain. We were in we were going to a school, and we were in an area that has its own brand and its own associations. So Okay. We were in South Central LA. Right? Okay. So now that gives me some context. That gives you some context. Yeah. Yeah. So this People like that. What's on the local news in LA. You can imagine so I, you know, my parents’ reactions had no I'm not even from LA and I know South Central LA. Yes. Had nothing to do with, I just wanna state it outright, had nothing to do with race or ethnicity. Yeah. But knowing that we were in South Central LA, and you could see the dilapidated Yes. Context, and so that's the context that they're feeling. Okay. Oh, there used to be yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. You get but what I was start coming out today. But what I was trying to get across in that in that piece, in what I was saying is no matter who you are, myself, my parents, any other people, when you see images on the local news through media about a certain place Mhmm. In a certain group of people in that place and what happens, and when you go to a certain area, and you see what it looks like, and you have feelings about your personal safety, and you just notice who's around. Hello. Right? It's I think it's a natural and I don't wanna I do not want I don't know if I took that on. I don't I cannot speak for my parents about how they feel. Of course. They have engaged. Like I said, my dad had minority students through much of his career and had great engagement with them. Right? So I'm not making any presumptions about the impact on my parents. I'm speaking more generally about people. Yeah? And that for me taking it in and thinking about it and seeing the difference in the feeling of safety and the feeling and the economic situation and the difference in the color of people and being able to see my world relative to that world, which had all of those differences, feeling of safety, different socioeconomic conditions, and a different mix of races and ethnicities. That for me is a kind of symbol and had a strong impact on the different realities that people live in. And if I think about how that gets broadcast, the way that people might take on these associations about people and racial Totally. That's what I was trying to get across. Does that make sense? That makes complete sense because what I'm trying to do now, what I want what I'm asking is to expound on that that maybe the acknowledgment of those differences and through all of the, you know, media perceptions, etcetera, that a person has taken in. Could you psychological could you architect your framework of thinking in such a way where you don't even want to acknowledge in order to protect yourself? Right? Yeah. So I guess what and to explicitly state it, could a white person say, I won't even I don't even want to engage because if I engage, then I have to acknowledge that this is real, and then that brings its own set of things that make me feel uncomfortable. Like, I don't wanna have and so because I wanna live in a place of psychological comfort, meaning safety, that me and my physical person and my view my world view are safe and they're accurate and they're right, I just won't even engage. Because as a black person, that's how sometimes it feels that we're being shut down. Like, when we're in another episode, I talk about what have you told people? No. This is my reality. And people say, so what? So what? Because to deal with your reality makes me feel uncomfortable, so I'm not gonna deal with it. But how can we not deal with it when we're all sharing the country together? Well, I think some probably consciously or unconsciously feel that they can because they don't have to. Mhmm. True enough. True. True. True. They just don't. They just don't. I mean, I think that's kind of a little bit of the premise of your question, which is Mhmm. If you had to deal with it, you'd feel obliged to do something about it. Yes. Yes. That is part of the premise of my question. That's part of the premise. I mean, part of the premise is just the discomfort, of that. I think so going back to the conversation that happened around racial profiling. One can imagine. I mean, just imagine, like, all just imagine people across America being in that situation in that moment. How many people would feel comfortable, like, continuing that conversation? I don't know. Race and rate and conflict generally. People there there's a lot of people who are just generally averse to conflict. Averse. Yeah. When it comes to their personal relationships. Like, I mean, think about what it's what politics in the last few years has done to families and friends. Right? And how, you know, there's just a lot of people. They just don't wanna talk about it. Like, let's just not talk about politics. Like, let's just not talk about the things that bring conflict into our relationship. I can't do that. Because I'm someone personally who has to discuss the pink elephant in the room. There's not gonna be an elephant in the room and we're all just sitting here. Yeah. Like, you know, you don't see this elephant in the room. I'm like Yeah. So me being a shy person growing up, I can kind of empathize with the feeling of not getting into it. Mhmm. Obviously, I've changed. Anyone who knows me over the course of my lifetime knows that I've changed. And now I'm not just open to having the conversation but will bring the conversation. Yeah. You're leading. You're leading. Yeah. But I also understand why people sometimes just don't wanna get into conflict generally in their relationships. Why people might do a calculation of, okay, is it gonna be real is it really worth having this conversation and threatening the peace and happiness and connection in this relationship that I have for the purpose of having this conversation? Do I really need to have it? I mean, how many of us do that in our personal relationships? How many of us maybe you don't on that. But maybe you're living in a fool's paradise. You don't have to convince me of that. I'm just you just asked me a question of do people feel uncomfortable? Yes. I'll give you one answer. Yes. I cannot live in a fool's paradise. Neither can I? I'm not a big elephant in the room as you do. It's really hard for me not to, but it doesn't mean that I never feel nervous about it. Mhmm. Right? Okay. I accept. Right? When I go into when I had to have the conversation with my parents about the way we were gonna do our wedding and how I wasn't going to break the glass like it's traditional in Jewish like, I had to have the conversation. I couldn't just, like, avoid it. Right? Mhmm. But did I feel some nerves about having it because it was gonna instigate conflict in in the relationship and with regard to the wedding. And, certainly, I had some nerves about it. And so I think when it comes to race, when it comes to not just race, but any issue that doesn't feel directly pertinent to one's life, then you can imagine that the barrier to having the conversation is even greater. Like, in the conversation about breaking the glass in the wedding, I couldn’t not avoid that conversation. It was personally relevant. Right? Like, I was going to be having a wedding, and that wedding was not going to include that tradition. And I had to think about what Adan, and I were working to you know, aspiring to create. Right? There was strong personal relevance. But if you think about a person who doesn't feel strong relevance to the source of the conflict, the topic, there's all the more reason to just Okay. Cool. So what happens when it lands on your doorstep? When your when your kid wants to date the black kid. So now when the elephant is now started making noise and taking shits all over your living room. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topicshealingraceshow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our Healing Race. So with respect to race and public policy, then where is the line? When do we start having the conversation? When is when, okay, we say, okay. Now the elephant is making noise, and we need to deal with the elephant. Because it feels like in the US, we kick cans down the road. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.