Should We Focus On Race When Teaching U.S. History?

So when I look back on, you know, the founding fathers of the United States, I see that, they did some pretty intellectually adept things that were, cutting edge for their time, but they also were just run of the mill bigots that did not have the imagination to imagine it in other ways in in many ways. Right? So they could not imagine. But I'm sorry, Landon. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Because in my opinion, you're giving those founding fathers too much grace. So they I'm trying to try to make the case. Yeah. You were. And you're making it eloquent. You're making it you're making the case in an eloquent manner. But to quote Ruth Susan, to quote Ruth Susan. So these founding fathers could remember. They could envision their own freedom from the crown but couldn't envision our freedom from them. So we gonna live our lives worried about and rejoicing in white folks’ freedom on the 4th of the MF July. And it never occurred to them that we would want the same thing. I just find that incredulous. I mean, listen. I, in my history, relate a lot because my grandparents on one side were holocaust survivors. Right? And I know that deep persecution of that on that level breeds a certain kind of strength of identity and need to connect and express oneself as a group. Right? And so more than that, that's how you gain rights. Like, if we like, if those people include, including Jewish people, didn't organize around that principle that you just pointed out, then it makes the, you know, helping the collective that much more difficult. So it almost seems natural to do that. Yeah. And I just I mean, I know, Marcus, one thing you brought up not during the past conversation, but in our individual conversation was HBCUs, right, and this kind of desire or need, or, you know, need just because there weren't other opportunities to create spaces. The Jews did the same thing, right? You know, there's always this question of why is there so many Jews in law or finance or entertainment. It's because those were the spaces where they could actually work. And so when you're excluded and or to the next level of persecuted, there is a natural inclination to want to have your space. You know? And I guess I feel like this gets a little bit even to the heart of, Landon, your question of when is the past the past and can we move forward? I guess, what is a way forward where you could, you know, express something as part of your identity that might not be American? It is American, but there's also a unique part of it. Right? It's black or it's Jewish or it's female, you know, Susan, as you brought up. Right? It's some part of your identity, but at the same time, do it in a way that isn't that that doesn't feel threatening to the broader uniting identity. Right? Can you sing a black national anthem and still be patriotic and call it a black national anthem? Right? Right. And is there, you know, you know, you asked you asked this question at some point in our one-on-one landing of a unique black history, because you brought up the persecution of the Mormons. Right? And I've brought up the persecution of the Jews, which happened in Europe. Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen here in the states, but, you know, we weren't killed here in the states. Right? But, you know, a few you know, of course, incidents, hate crimes. But en masse and organized. En masse and organized. Right? And so, I guess, how do you Landon, how do you process this idea of a united America, but at the same time, a need to express uniquely? And do you think there is a unique history that needs to be considered, different from, you know, other persecution stories that that might help us relate to the black experience in some way? Right? What is your sense of that? Yeah. That's a good question. I think there is a unique history that has to be considered. And I think that the process of, bringing to light that history, to educating a people who also have their own identities, who have their own histories, who have, you know, they my family came from Germany. My family came from you know, my family was Mormon, or English, whatever you have you. I think it's going to be messy as like Marcus said. I think it's gonna be incremental. It takes some force, you know, and that has been proven. You know, it takes people who were willing to protest and shout, I think. I think that that has been proven to be true. Because, you know, the changing of hearts and minds, you immediately get a defensive response. I got a defensive response, with Colin Kaepernick. You know, I felt like, oh, I didn't want politics in this in this sport. I came to get away from politics. So immediately you feel that. But, you know, history is history and facts are facts. And if you have, you know, history and facts, you how do you get that out into people's hearts and minds without, condemnation of that person without condescension, and without making it a, us versus them moral battle, of, you know, our people versus your people, you know? And that I think it takes it it's incredibly difficult. Martin Luther King was probably the best we've seen at that. But even there was shortcomings in that approach. That approach sometimes doesn't get you all the way. Right? So, I can just say, I think it's incremental. It has to happen a person at a time, and it has to happen through discussion, respectful discussion, non-condescending because condescension breeds more resentment, which breeds more defensiveness Right. Which breeds, populism. You know? I mean, unfortunately, that these kinds of things go against our most basic instincts. You know? It's hard to come do this. It's hard to bring ourselves here. So sometimes it's kinda depressing about, how this goes against our most basic human instincts, in some ways. You know? Mhmm. So did I hear you right? So your approach, I heard that it wasn't, you know, without condescension. There's teaching without condescension. Right? It's, I also think I heard that while you're teaching, let's say, unique black history, you still allow did I hear right that you still allow other people to bring their histories as well so that they're part of still part of the that they don't feel left out in in just focusing on black history. So you’re building common human bridges. Right? You have to build bridges as humans face to face. And then they open up a little bit more to being taught the realities of the unique black history, which so many people I still don't know. Right? People in my shoes. Right? So that's how I think it should be done, but it's also messy. And in a polarized environment such as we experience right now, every effect every reaction has a counter reaction. You know? And so it's hard. I it's all I can say, but it's very question, Lance. I do. Mhmm. May I ask you a question to directly to you? Because I feel all of this is, undergirded by the frameworks with which we're taught to analyze events, you know, that happened historically. Right? And would conservative leading people be more open to changing a framing away from, my history and your history and then the other person's history and adopt something that's more of there is a lineage of time that has taken place, and all of these are dimensions in the flow of that time. And some of the things that occurred in these pockets were a little bit messy and some were great. That's just a complicated a peak complication of people. But I'm essentially getting at is that what could would conservative people be amenable to altering the framework of analysis, and then as that framework is altered, opening to how the lens of events or how the lens is applied to events such that you get to something of a space where there is something called the black national anthem, and it doesn't feel an anathema to the United States national anthem. Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's, in progress, but I think it's incredibly slow. You know, as we see 2 quarterbacks in the Super Bowl, I think it helps us look, less a race. Honestly, it becomes the norm. It becomes and that is slowly moving. Right? And it becomes, I think, although race is, headline politically increasingly, I think for the norm, the mass majority of the population, we're exact we're actually experiencing the opposite where different races are becoming the norm. Every race can actually get to, the highest positions or gender or what have you, that we actually are seeing that happen in our time. You don't read that in news headlines, but you see it when you when you watch sports now, when you go out, in in your communities and things. So I think that that that you get the wrong ideas if you're just listening to the media because they monetize, frustration and hatred. And to some degree, that's legit. But it's I think it's wrong, overall, projection of what's actually happening across American population. So can we do it right now, Andre? Can we, you know, integrate fully the black experience? It depends on where you live, depends on which city you can't grow up in. But I think it is happening. Even for the most conservative areas, it is slowly happening. And I and I, and I'm not sure that it can be sped up unless we are more effective, and depolarize a bit, in in projecting you know, it's all of us. Here's you know, it’s much more than you learned about. It's but we're it's still all of us. You know? But it's complicated. It's more complicated, and here's how it's more complicated. I just have a follow oh, go ahead, Todd. No. Go ahead, Maren. I was just thinking of Susan's experience. I'll just throw this out there, and then, Maren, you can take over. You talked about Susan, you know, watching Roots, and it was like I was just thinking, like, could that even happen across the country today? No. You know? Well That's sad and it does kinda happen because how many people watched the whole video of George Floyd? I mean, a lot of people did. And that's just you sort of a you a whole moment where we're all kind of, hey. We're all looking at the same thing here and seeing something really wrong. Yeah. Most of us. Let's just say that. Yeah. No. That's a really good point. Most of us. I was thinking more in the education system. Yeah. Yeah. So I have a yeah. I have a thought in the education system too. And I guess I'm gonna riff a little bit on what Andre was asking about how we get to a place where we can teach a more nuanced, you know, like, there's different histories that weave together and put that all into the narrative of, you know, who we are as a people. I think there's some resist there may be some resistance on the right because then they hear extreme voices on the other side where they think they think somebody's gonna wanna make everything in the frame of race. I'm just putting yours myself in their mindset. They think, okay. They look at somebody on the way extremes very extreme other side, and they wanna frame everything in terms of race. Like and you walk out the door and everything you encounter in the world, everything is about race. Every interaction, everything that happens is about race. Mhmm. That's what they think about the other side, and that's what they're put they may be pushing out back against that and who say, can't we get away from that? And then that side, you know, is looking for the conservative side and saying they don't even wanna acknowledge race even exists. They want us to be color blind, and we're clearly not. So those are they're pointing to the worst part of the other side, and we just have to amplify those voices in the middle, which sounds like all of us maybe are. Never more have a more nuanced and reasonable point of view. I think what's hard is it can be debated that whether we have been aware of it or not, that race has always been an undercurrent, not just in American history, but world history. You know, like we can, you know, we can go back and if it wasn't, you know, skin color, you know, like physical skin color, it was tribe. It was religion. It was like we always have kind of had an us versus them mentality throughout life, and I think what can be tough and sometimes a bit. To use a harsher word than intended, insulting to especially to, like, I think of my ancestors, is when there is this why does everything have to be about race now? Like, it’s kind of always has been in this country. Like and, you know, to whether it was segregation, whether it was the reconstruction era, whether it was slavery, whether it's like, it's always kind of played a role. And, yeah, there's a lot of different layers to it, especially when you add wealth and different sorts of aspects to it. But I always ask, you know, well, you know, why does everything have to be about race? When has it not been about race? Just because we weren't talking about it and oftentimes, we weren't talking about it because we were in our various segregated communities of that sort. Does it mean it hasn't always been a factor? Now I think it's been at the forefront of more marginalized groups than many, kind of like the same way I think gender, has been. But like sometimes I definitely fear the whole, like, not everything has to be about race, is to deny a certain aspect of, like, on some level, it’s kind of always has been. So, Maron, you don't you think that focusing being focusing on the black community and focusing on race is not doesn't have to be a bad thing or a separatist kind of thing? No. It doesn't have to be I mean, it just right. It doesn't have to be a bad thing. It just kind of is. Like, sometimes it's just an acknowledgment of how it's been at play even when we haven't really talked about it outright. Right? It's kind of, I kinda like to think of it in the first times I was really, really aware of the role that race played in greater society was really the first time that I traveled overseas. Right? And like the first time I was in, like, parts of Africa and most people looked like me and you just see the vibe is different. And you're like, okay, this is how what people mean when they say, like, race is kind of always played a role. Like, yeah, it's easy to sit there and go, why does everything have to be about race? You know, go to an environment where the racial dynamics are flipped, and you will see how race has always been at play. You know, just through adjusting to how you navigate it. Or even stopping and thinking of, I'll just think of, like, being in parts of, like, Egypt and everything that review walk into a store and think of, like, your average drugstore. Right? And think of 90% of the products being geared towards people who look like me. Like, dark skin makeup, you know, stuff for, like, dark hair, but, like, that's when you're like, oh, this is different. Where you're used to us getting the ethnic sex offender at the end of the head cap, and everything else is for different sorts of hair. And that's when you go, oh, okay. This is what people need in terms of, like, in some form of another, it's always a play. It's not always at play in a malicious way, but it definitely is always at play in a way that sets a tone. And being aware of that tone is not positive or negative, it just is. Yeah. I mean, that's something of just populations of people, though. Right? Like that if I go to Japan and live there, then, I'll experience the same thing as you said. So yeah. You know, I'm I think that every country must have that exact dynamic, to some degree or another. And when I go to Mexico, you know, I'm I stand out like a sore thumb. I'm that gringo guy. You know? And I'm the gringo, you know, and it it's fine. It's but and I know some people, harbor some resentment, toward gringo there. No doubt. So, you know, when does it when does that just become part of being, in a diverse, country? And when does it cross the line into, negativity or maliciousness? You know? Mhmm. Yeah. I just wonder too. I mean, I hear you, Marin, but I also wonder, should every lesson every history lesson be taught in the ins in the lens in in the racial in a racial lens? Or you could say the same thing about, you know, women's rights. Should every history less than be taught in terms of the subjugation of women? Or sometimes is it Mhmm. It's hard because I can't think of any, like, way of teaching history that would be, like, all encompassing. Right? Because there's so many different dynamics or whatever at play. I can say, you know, speaking of since what's been top of mind, at least here in the US, is the way that American history is taught. I think to a certain extent, yes. I mean, we are founding documents, like, have racism, sexism, and classism embedded into them. Right? And just acknowledge and then even the way that they were enforced is a whole other element of racism, sexism, classism. And then even, you know, religious bigotry, you know, as well. And I think it's just being aware of being aware of it. Right? That that's more so of where I'm from here because it has colored the experience of every kind of group of people here. And I think especially given how diverse that the US is, especially in comparison to other nations on the planet. And I think what's also very, very important, that I always remind people of is we were the 1st nation to write all men are created equal in our founding documents. So when people do the whole like, well, there was slavery in the UK and there was a, but we wrote in our founding documents like no other nation did. That was what was supposed to make us the greatest nation in the world, is we wrote all men are created equal, and then we took parts in the same foolery. And that's why it is a bigger deal. Right? Like and that is also what I say to people when they go, oh, why don't we talk about, like, we're the only nation that had slavery. We weren't the only nation that slavery. We're the only one who wrote down all men are created equal and then turned around and did it. That's why it's a bigger stain on us. So what's wrong with holding the nation accountable? What'd you say, Andre? I'm just throwing it out there. I'm just cosigning what you're saying. What's wrong with holding the nation accountable? Yeah. Mhmm. Yeah. I agree with you guys. The comp you know, it's just it's hard. As a as a person who grew up with that kind of history that I had, you know, I look back and I don't think that, very few people could have imagined, that there is such a thing as an economy without slave labor, at that point in time in history. I don't even think that that frost the majority of people's minds that that was a possibility. Just like women, were, inferior, just on just because of their biology. That was just written. That's how God made it. You know? I think that these kinds of things, these ideas have not passed through the brains of 95% of people back in those time periods. And so, you know, that's, a condemnation of the nation. But it's also a condemnation of humanity as a whole that those kind of, narratives existed, and they existed for a multitude of reasons. Some of them pretty malicious, I would say. You know, it's about power in a lot of ways. Right? So, you so when I look back on, you know, the founding fathers of the United States, I see that, they did some pretty intellectually adept things that were, cutting edge for their time, but they also were just run of the mill bigots that did not have the imagination to imagine it in other ways in in many ways. Right? So they could not imagine. But I'm sorry, Landon. Go ahead. I'm sorry. Because in my opinion, you're giving those founding fathers too much grace. So they're trying to make the case. Yeah. You and you're making it eloquent. You're making it you're making the case in an eloquent manner. But to quote Ruth Susan, to quote Ruth Susan. So these founding fathers could remember. They could envision their own freedom from the crown but couldn't envision them freedom from them. So we gonna live our lives worried about and rejoicing in white folks’ freedom on the 4th of the MF July, and it never occurred to them that we would want the same thing. I just find that incredulous. Absolutely. I agree with you. I mean and then that that idea right there that you just said is makes a lot of sense in how you feel about our nation. Right? They never even crossed their minds that you also would want that same freedom. They didn't consider you to be, black people to be a full person. Right? So that was not that was not even in there, they couldn't even imagine it. That's what I'm saying. Right? And I'm not giving I'm not saying that that's okay. Right? Some people from the people from the north, though, were doing that as conciliation to the south. So there were very it was varied across the colonies. It wasn't a monolithic Yeah. Sure. Way of seeing this here. Oh, I know. I know. So yep. I mean, I don't I don't mean to defend something abhorrent, but you know No. I want you to challenge me, please. No. I want you. So, Landon, what you're saying is that they had the best-case scenario, they actually believed this. That they believe that that black people were not full human. Right? No. I think they believed it. Yeah. I think they believed it. You think they believed it? Yep. Yeah. Or maybe even one maybe another maybe interpretation could be they rationalized it as such. Right? Or maybe they believe their rationalizations. Right? That that to be able to live in a contradiction that Andre is bringing up, which is we want our freedom from others, but black people can't have their freedom from us. Right? They are not us. From us. That to live in that conflict, you do what humans do, which is to rationalize. Well, that is the case because they're not fully human. Right? They're, you know, 3 fifths human. Right? And sometimes we believe our rationalizations genuinely, and sometimes we sometimes we just rationalize. Right? Sometimes we Different decrease. Yeah. It's not Technically deceitful as I have, you know, used with Andre. Right? And Andre, your view, I think My fervor comes. Your fervor is you wonder the degree to which people genuinely believe this versus the degree to which they rationalized it as a way to kinda get themselves off the hook. That's what I feel is the is the kind of tension. Right? And how and how it could not have occurred just following the whole logical thought process to the end. Right? Yeah. Because I mean, just as we say often, I mean, using common sense. And Landon, please don't feel as I'm attacking you personally, but it really does like I'm a physical person, so you probably see me moving around and rolling my eyes. It's because when I hear something, I have to respond. I live in my You feel strong. I under I have no problem with that, Andre. Andre, Landon, what do you what do you I'm just really curious about this question that Andre raises, the kind of because you I feel like you have a certain sense of realism about the degree to which change can happen and the degree to which narratives really drive a lot of what we do and how we engage with the world. And I always just I on one hand, I feel like you're very realistic, and therefore, maybe think things are gonna move slowly. On the other hand, I see I always feel a certain sense of optimism about you or, like, benefit of the doubt, you know, or, you know, maybe it's an understanding of people growing up educated in the reality that they were taught. Right? And when you when you grow up learning a certain narrative, right, you just kind of as a kid sometimes, a lot of kids, a lot of people take that as just given. That's just that's just the way the world works. Not all of us are, especially as kids, question the world that we are taught. So I kind of I understand a certain sense of where you're coming from, and I also understand a certain sense of where Andre is coming from where, you know, is there something deep in our hearts that even maybe if at the surface level, we think there's this reality that, you know, looking back we can say as like, how could they even believe this? But maybe that was the reality. Is there a certain kinda in the depth of their heart where they just they know what's true and just they're they are they are in a system that they feel maybe they lack power to change, and they are just gonna live based on the narrative that they were taught. Like, how, I guess, how much do you think people genuinely felt that black people were just not fully human versus how many just rationalized it that way? What is your what is your sense of how people experienced it? Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healing race show dot com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. I guess, how much do you think people genuinely felt that black people were just not fully human versus how many just rationalized it that way? What is your what is your sense of how people experienced it? And I'll tell you why I asked in a second, but I'd really love to know your answer. Yeah. I think it's it was primarily religious determined back then, and the religious narratives around race, I think, were pretty clear cut. And those had been evolved over time to enslave Black people and to Christians. What's that? I said Christians. Yeah, exactly. I think that those, I mean, it didn't start out like that, but I think that that you add religious narratives to your religious narratives over time and it becomes okay, and it becomes sanctified. Gospel. It becomes sanctified. By God and that is your absolute reality if you are a religious person. I can say this because I grew up as a religious person. And so that reality is set in a lot of ways unless you break, really powerful bonds with your community. So that reality is communal enforced. It is set when you're very young, indoctrination. And so I can say, I think that a lot of them were just completely blind because that was the indoctrination that they got. Now that doesn't mean that there's not 10% of their brain that says this kind of this is uncomfortable. But I don't think it was enough to break those communal bonds that they formed and that kept them, as part of the group. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.