Is the Backlash to Cancel Culture about Racial Issues Justified?

Thank you for tuning in to Healing Race. In this video, Todd and I tackle what has come to be known as cancel culture, discussing what we like and what we don't like about how we talk about and treat each other in the cancer culture world. We also discuss the backlash that can occur when people feel that their speech and behavior are unfairly stifled. What is the line between canceling someone and criticizing them for behaviors that are taken as offensive? How do we distinguish what is ignorance and what is harmful intent when it comes to those offensive behaviors? And when do punishments go too far in responding to such behaviors? Let's get to that conversation now. Enjoy. What is your perception of what cancel culture means? What is your perception of what people find problematic with cancel culture, and where do you lie on where what part of this thing called cancel culture is positive and what part is negative? Well, I think there's so many facets to it. I think to what I think what's I mean, some things just need to be denounced out of hand because they're just not true. Like, I mean, when I was listening, the difference between misinformation and disinformation. Right? For someone to say the holocaust never happened, that's not true. And whoever is saying that you need to shut that person down. That's not true. Right? However, I think in the nuance of the things that people say and in cancel culture, you know, it's in a world with so much overloaded information from the Internet and stimuli all over the place with information. It's hard to know what's real and false and what's true and not and or even what truth means to you. With respect to cancel culture, you know, it's very easy and you I mean, you spoke to tribalism, right, about groups and people wanting to accept things that come from the group of which they self-identify. And I think cancel culture is a missed opportunity for getting on common ground, sharing information, but also undergirds and reinforces your worldview. When no matter which side of it you're on, whether you're in favor of canceling a person who said something or whether you believe what that person said is true. Right? So I think I look at it as it looks at it as a missed opportunity for everyone to get the record straight on most thing. Now, like I said, things that are absolutely categorically, you know, not true, then, yes, that person needs to be canceled effectively, if you will. But on things that are much more nuanced and where they require examination and more information, then I think we should all take the ability to do so. I guess the problem is we also we don't trust each other, and we also don't trust our news sources or our sources of information, or we align ourselves only with, you know, 1 or 2 sources. We don't challenge our worldview enough. So with respect to, you know, that because of that that, that sentiment, it just reinforces and makes cancel culture stronger in my opinion. So what so my so just to so what where is that line of what should be canceled and what shouldn't? Right? I think I think we all Let's use let's use some specific examples in kind of our pop culture environment. There have been people who so if someone has if someone wore blackface back in the past and a picture surfaces the of them having worn blackface Yeah. Like, I was also. What is your feeling about how that should be handled? And so, you know, a lot of people push back on or get upset when someone like that loses a position, gets dragged in some way on the on the Internet, and then they say that's canceling. Right? Like, someone just got canceled. What and you can use all sorts of different examples. Someone tells a joke in a certain way about black people or otherwise. Right? What is your what is your take on that? Like, what is your take on how we should handle people, what they've done in the past, what they say in the present, that might come off as hurtful, that might really be hurtful to somebody, whether intentioned intentionally done or not. How should we handle that? Do you agree do you agree with some of the some of the essence of what people who don't like this idea of cancel culture say? Which is just not liking cancel culture. But that's as long as you're I'm fine with people not liking cancel culture or canceling someone as long as you're willing to engage in a discussion about the motivation of the action. Right? Yeah. And what and its and its impact and what it was trying to do. Similar to, like, blackface. Right? So I'm I watch a lot of Turner classic movies, so I encountered this a lot in old movies. And, TCM has done very deliberate discussions on that topic. And it's even brought up in Bogle's book, Black in Hollywood, and Professor Jacqueline Stewart has, you know, had extensive conversations. So in the framework for examining blackface in particular was to ask those questions. What's really going on here? But if you are saying a person just shouldn't, a person should not be canceled just because we live in a world where you should be able to do whatever the hell you want, that's not right because that's also not thinking. That's not critical thinking. Right? So, I mean, I think when there is a desire for critical thinking and discussion, then that's where it's meaningful. But if you're just saying, well, I dislike cancel culture or canceling, you know, a particular person just because I think it's like a form of bullying and just shutting down people, that's not thought. That's just, you know, that's just being on the opposite side of an issue. Mhmm. That makes sense? Yeah. You want so is your opinion I wanna make sure I got this right. Is your sense that or your stance that if you are going to express yourself in the public square in some way I mean, granted some people get things shared that they don't mean to be shared, but let's just if you're gonna express yourself in the public square, you have to be open to the, you know Critique. The social the critique. Yeah. Critique. Yeah. Isn't that what we learned in college? Like Yeah. Or in high school, whatever debate. But on the other side, the people who are giving the critique, it sounds like and again, I don't wanna put words in your mouth. I'm just trying to understand that they should tone down their critique to the degree that someone is willing to enter into a conversation to understand what is problematic about what they did. Why what they expressed was problematic or hurtful in some way. And I know I'm asking a lot in a social media world, so I'm giving you a very cerebral answer to, 145-character problem. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because and, you know, that's and I wanna deliberately bring up technology because I live my life with technology, and I'm learning how to build technology myself. You know, I'm becoming software engineer. All these things, yeah, for real at my age. Right? You're learning Python. But, you know, phones give us anonymity. YouTube gives us anonymity, and it's just so easy to just fire off something. Kinda like what Kevin Hart said or and when he was doing an interview with someone, I don't remember whom he said, are you that passionate to sit down and write a letter? Because remember when people had to actually write their congressman, not just tweet Ted Cruz. Or whatever. Like, they had to sit down and explain their thinking and rationale, but we don't live in that world anymore. We live in this reaction, and it's so easy. You could binge your show and just mess with people on Twitter just because just to mess with people. Yeah. What do you think? I feel like you're asking all these questions. What do you think? Yeah. I well, I mean, I here's what concerns me. I I'm conflicted about it. Honestly conflicted about it. I think that social norms that that that people experiencing criticism and even consequences to behaviors that are harmful or inappropriate is just part of how we've developed healthy and sometimes unhealthy norms in our country Mhmm. In our societies generally. Yeah. So I think if we get rid, you know, I'm always about positive reinforcement, like trying to use positive means to get someone to take up healthy behaviors. But the truth of the matter is we also sometimes need certain kinds of discomforts and punishments, you know, for lack of it. That sounds really strong, but some kind of punishments to let us know this is not right. You know? So we've used that for as long as probably we've been a species. Right? Mhmm. Yeah. And so if there are certain norms of behavior that hurt people and harm people and we should think of as inappropriate, I'm I can't imagine a world of us moving in a direction where we have healthier, more productive, and constructive norms without that social norm dynamic, without that, hey, what you did is wrong and you're gonna feel the some kind of shame for it, maybe some kind of blowback for it. So there are people on the cancel culture who are, you know, adamantly opposed to what they call cancel culture because of any, you know, any kind of punishment for expression. And I think if you're gonna express yourself, then, like you said, be open to critique about it and even be open to a reaction. Yeah. I think my concern and what makes it so hard and why I'm somewhat conflicted about it is this. Because of the way because of how interconnected we are, because of the way social media works in this fact that we are interconnected at such a broad level, and is, you know, such a wide circle, Sometimes the punishments seem to way outweigh the behavior. They seem very disproportionate. And I would agree with that. No one is asking people to lose careers or whatever. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I that's plausible to me. Yeah. And so I don't know a way like, I don't wanna go to a world where you're not open to any critique, but I also don't but I also think there's some way in which we need to calm, to tone down the way in which people experience blowback in their lives, and I would also say create the space for them to seek redemption. Like, a lot of times this stuff is from the past, and you get people who did blackface in the past, who were, you know, who lost certain opportunities and, you know, on the reverse side, like Kevin Hart. Right? His whole situation with what was it? He was gonna He told me to have gays. If his son were a guy, remember? Yeah. Yeah. And the Oscars because of that. The Oscars. Yeah. And, you know, this dream that he had and so and he had apologized previously. He had he had he had said things previously. It's like you we have to allow for people to redeem themselves. We have to make the punishment proportionate to the negativity of the behavior. If really the true reason for that blowback is to give people clear ideas of what is harmful and hurtful and wrong and inappropriate and not and appropriate and constructive. Like, we want to send that message, but we also want to be fair about it. So I think we probably sit in a very similar place here that we don't like the, maybe, the way that cancel culture plays out, but that there is room for change. There is room for punishment. There is room for blowback. There is room for criticism, for responses. And that's why I brought up being PC. Right? Yeah. Because people get sick of the blowback, and now you get blowback, but not now specifically. But at some point, you're gonna get blowback for the blowback. And people like, why do I have to be so PC? Yeah. And now we go back. We sort of take a step back, and people feel now they can say all sorts of things and others are the brunt of their jokes and feel disrespected. I just it feels like it's always just so very sinusoidal. And then it doesn't have to be sinusoidal. If there's an undercurrent of forward thinking and respect, I guess maybe and I'm using a very spiritual speak. This is my natural inclination. But that's why I said hold in love. Like, if I put on this blackface or say this about women or use this word in in a public forum, some people could have a problem with it. And one of the, like, I once told someone, I said, there's kind of this thing in the black community where we say you don't know me like that. And I was like, and you don't. You don't know people like that to start to make those kinds of statements public. And now, like you said, some things are done that were never meant to be shared and some things, you know, are they were never meant to be shared, but they still reveal something about a person that the public feels they need to know. And I think yeah. Go ahead. No. Go ahead. I was just gonna say, you know, I think there's there are plenty of times too where it's not just they didn't know it was gonna be shared. Like, I expressed to you in the last conversation a certain level of naivete. Like, I am sure that there are people who do things that don't quite understand the real impact that it might have on another person. I mean, there's tons of times we all do that in our lives. All do that, yeah, in our lives. So if someone used blackface, I think it's completely plausible that someone really did not especially if they're, you know, segregated from the Black community and don't really have a deep understanding of what's hurtful, and what's not, can be naive and ignorant about the true the true impact. I don't know the history of those you do. Right? Cry shenanigans because we as black people believe in 2021 after so much in being done so many times in pop culture Yeah. You should have some basic understanding of where it's rooted because it's rooted in making fun of black people and receiving black people in a way that was palatable to white people. Like, those are just basic things, not even just because I follow film historians, and film historians have done educated discussion on all of this. But and then this week crash shenanigans. Because then you mean to tell me in 2021, you you're naive about something like blackface and, like, no. And that's the skepticism. Yeah, well, but I, but I would say back to you is, I mean, I would I have ever done that? I probably would have felt uncomfortable just, but would I have felt uncomfortable doing blackface because I knew about the history? Absolutely not. I just wouldn't have. I mean, I think there's a way in which I would suggest to you I would, you know, kind of offer to you that you are so rooted in understanding those things because you've had to you've had the motivation to have to understand those things. Yes. Because they're with respect to with respect to blackface, they're making fun of me. No. And I thought and all of that. They're making fun of me. Yeah. But I will tell you, Andre, I had no idea. I had no idea. Like, until these were brought into greater light, I had no idea it was I didn't know its history. I didn't know and so, therefore, I didn't know its hurt or harm that it caused because, like, when would that when would that have been presented to me? Like, when would I have even known it's the idea of, like, you don't know what you don't know. Right? And so when you say I'm a powerful believer in that, and you don't know in 2021, I don't even know to investigate something like blackface. Like, I don't even know that. And I think this does go a little bit to the fact that we never had a conversation, right, about race. And I do wish I do wish I would have had some of that conversation. Right? Because then I would have probably been open to some of these things. I would have now would a blackface have ever come up? I don't know if it would have come up. But, Todd, I remember something about our friendship. Yeah. I remember this, and we were in Beverly Hills. I know all this sounds privileged to the world who's about to see this, but, yes, this happened. We were in Beverly Hills together, and we were walking, not on Rodeo Drive, but some street near Wells Fargo. There's a Wells Fargo in Beverly Hills. I remember it. And you said, I wanna get cornrows. And I looked at you, and I said, don't do that. And you're like, why not? And I said, because, you know, that is a traditional African hairstyle It symbolizes a lot of different things. I don't know if I put it as eloquently as my 18-year-old self as I'm doing now in my 40s, but I gave you some sort of and you would and you were like, I'm fine. I want cornrows. I could have cornrows, and I just dropped it because I was like, you know, first of all, I know you're headstrong and you're like, I remember this talk. Yeah. Yeah. I remember this. But it kinda says it kinda says vaguely familiar now that you bring it up. But I bring it up to say because you didn't know. Yeah. You like you said, like, when would that have ever been presented to me that cornrows are this traditional Afghan hairstyle with all the with these meanings, and they're actually quite beautiful and grand and great. What I would suggest is I understand, and I agree and in support with the demand that if people do something that is harmful, inappropriate, that that carries with it some kind of symbolic meaning that hurts Mhmm. Others Mhmm. They should be open to the conversation, the criticism, and to hearing and understanding where that hurt comes from, and to be willing to change their behavior. I think it is again, what I would offer to you is it is a bit a bit much to just I would offer to you that just like you want white people to take the time and put in the energy to understand the Black experience, I think there is a little bit in the reverse that needs to happen when it comes to understanding why we might know or not know something. That if there is something that is that has not been within our information environment, and that again we don't know, we don't know, that it's a I would say it's a little bit of a high expectation to have that we would know those things. That's at least for me, I can't speak for, like, there is literally no time I came across the idea of blackface in my life, and I can't imagine or go back in I can't go back and imagine any time I would have even had any thought of knowing to even investigate that. So you've never seen the movie Soul Man. Like, this is his happiness so much in pop culture. No. I haven't. And even and let me even say this. Let's say I have come across it. I wouldn't have known its meaning. Like, if someone were dressed in black, you know, had blackface on, I wouldn't have known where it came from, what its meaning was, and how much it was hurtful. So even if I saw it, I would there was there would be nothing within me that would say, you know, this is this is inappropriate. I accept that. Yeah. And at the same time, what I do wanna say is I think this kind of conversation, because there's a lot of blowbacks to this as well, shows why we so need to teach balanced history. Right? Mhmm. Because we shouldn't expect, I don't think, individuals to all know what they don't know and shouldn't to all know what they should know, what we think they should know. But I think we should be advocates for knowing the things we should know to have better, more productive, healthier relationships. And so am I an advocate for people knowing about blackface? A 100%. Do I do I wish and hope that people won't be in the position that I am and probably many others are, or have been, that they are completely clueless about why that would be hurtful and what the history is, a 100%. Like, we should be socializing people into an understanding of the things that have created harm that are positive as well, not just the things that have created harm so that so that we can behave in ways that build each other up and don't tear each other down. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingraceshow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. I'm wondering what the connection is to something like a like a cultural expression like cornrows. That's what I really that's what I really don't understand because if I were to if I were to have gotten cornrows, it would have been I mean, it wouldn't have been blackface. It wouldn't have been I'm trying to be derogatory to black people and make fun of them by wearing this. Yeah. But how is the person that was pretty supposed to know that? So my question to you is what would be the motivation? Why would you be even wanting because there are other ways to be an ally, for lack of a better term in my mind right now, than adopting a hairstyle. Right? So what would be and I'm not saying I'm not advocating you should or shouldn't. Well, at the time, I was advocating You're advocating not to. Right. For whatever the motivation. Yeah. What would be that motivation? Because you but keep in mind, the people on the street don't know you. And so to keep you from getting jumped, you look run around here as this white child with these corn rows. Yeah. And I'm like, okay. How am I supposed to take that milk? Well, yeah. I don't I well, I would ask the question a little bit back to you of why it would be taken negatively. But let me just to be fair. Why would it not, given the history in this country? To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. 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