Skin Color or Personal Responsibility: What Plays More of a Role in Life Success?

Thank you for tuning into Healing Race. In this video, Andre shares how he expects his life success and his lighter black skin to lead people to doubt whether he has ever had to face racial bias in his life. And I ask him how he feels that some in the black community will attribute his success more to his lighter skin than his individual initiative. That leads us to discuss the roles that skin color and personal responsibility play in American success. And which of these factors deserves more attention in our society today? So let's get to that conversation now. Enjoy. I already know the blowback we're gonna get for this. Because you see this light skinned black man sitting in a comfortable condominium and talking about his Costa Rican husband. Where what how the fuck are you an equal? How with a Stanford education, how are you how have your how has your life personally been done wrong? Or I can hear the blowback now. I can hear the blowback now. You know what? It's really interesting about that is you tell your story about where you came from. You know what, Todd? People don't believe me. Like, even Mary doesn't believe how I grew up. They don't she doesn't believe me. When you say I was just plucked out of It was. It's one of the reasons. I was you know what? It's so funny. I was thinking about your mama the other day, actually, because Pretty Woman was on. And I'll never forget when I first went home with you, and you and I were just walking. You were showing me Beverly Hills, your neighborhood, Rodeo Drive. And we got back to that to your house. And your mom said, do you recognize any other from Pretty Woman? I was like, oh, yes. I do. And I'm like, in my mind, I said, I recognize all of it from Pretty Woman. I'm like, lady, if you only saw what I lived in and where I come from, like, this is literally I mean, it was like literally like a dream. Like a dream. You know? And so I always tell people, I said, what you see, The Maserati on I drive with Maserati. But Maserati, I drive in the home that I live in. Life did not start out this way. I am a class migrant. Not only me, my mother is a class migrant. Right? Like, we pulled ourselves up from and to quote Tina Turner, what was not taught to us. We started life my mother started life in an all-black inner-city section. I started life when she had me at 16 years old, 16 years old, in a housing project that is to this day still stands still stands Mhmm. Only about a 15-minute drive from where I live now. Yeah. Yeah. And people won't believe all of that. They're gonna say, well, the equity has been bridged because you went to stick because you wouldn’t believe how many people think that we have perfect lives just because we went to the schools we went to, or we have held the jobs that we held. Well, I think it gives you a new I well, I don't know what gives you a nuanced perspective. But perhaps your experience has given you some kind of nuanced perspective. I remember in one of the episodes you said, you said, no, I'm not gonna say privileged because I know not all white people are privileged, and I know some people have worked very hard to get to where they are. Right? Yes. But that there's just an inequity of support, just more support. Right? Yes. And that there's something as a white person you don't have to contend with that a black person has to contend with. Right? And so you have this kind of in the middle, you recognize people work hard because, you know, I'm guessing, you know, people don't believe you. Right? Like, you have, you know, I mean, I don't know how you I'm just gonna use because it's the cliche, the rags to riches, right, story, but not and, you know, maybe don't feel riches and maybe you weren't in rags, but you have the upward mobility story. You have the Yes. That's a great way to put it. The upward mobility story. Yeah. And, and there are white people who have that story as well. Right? And but, yes, I met them. Also don't use that to deny, which I've seen some people do in the black community even, deny that there are inequities that exist between white and black people. Right? They experience that upward mobility, and this is kinda where I thought you were coming from when you were talking when our white lives matter conversation, when you said when you were talking about some black people who have worked hard, aspired, and succeeded, and in some ways not rec not acknowledging, seeing the wholeness of their experience or at least the wholeness of the black experience across the world. Yes. And you felt like you were taking both parts. You worked hard, you did well, you went to a great school, you've, you know, prospered as an individual, even if you wanna prosper more, but you also knew where you where you came from, right? And so I feel like I feel like you have that balanced to me, you have that balanced that balanced viewpoint, and so I can understand you being in a tricky situation, in a tricky position. Right? You know, being where you came from, as you say, people not believing it because, like, look where you are now, and people questioning how the black experience in America, you know, whether it has affected you, right, because of what they now can see of, you know, or hear about your life. So I don't know. It's interesting. And also to the degree, because something that my black friends have pointed out is they've seen clips of this is that I'm light skinned. I'm light skinned. You're light skinned. You're light skinned. You know what that means. Right? Well, you haven't had it as hard as others. Yeah. Remember our first conversation, I said, my sort of reception with white people has to do with how my physical appearance Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess, and you said something really interesting, and I have a question about it. Because you said at the end of that episode, you said and that's the closest the power it was either that episode or another one. You said that there was kind of a power in having light skin, and you said that's the There is. Thing that I could understand to being white. Now what I would ask you is how do you feel about people looking at your success and say, but you have light skin, but you have light skin, but you have light skin. As if as if Whatever time. Reason. That's the only reason you are where you are. Right? How do you feel about that? I forget how smart you are sometimes. I fell right into that intellectual trap. No. It's not an intellectual trap. It's an emotional experience. Yeah. And it's a very valid, very valid question. Okay. I don't feel I don't I don't feel either way. You know? I cannot help my genetics the same way white people cannot help their genetics. But what I can help is social conditioning in the world, which is why I'm doing this show. Because if I just wanted to sit back with my little light skinned self and go to parties and dah with white friends and trust me, I've done that. Oh, and trust me, I've done that. You know, then I don't have to do make any contribution like this. I didn't have to even participate, but it's the very fact that I even wanna do this do this show. You know, is cognizant and, how can I say? As a recognition that, you know, whatever benefit that may have come to me by being light skinned is not necessarily been extended to all black people, and I would at least like to open up the conversation to have that done. You know what I mean? So I know because we've seen it in the episodes. I know that you acknowledge how having light skin has benefited you, even though as you say, you always remember, you're still black. Right? I am. So I you've heard we've heard you acknowledge that. What I'm asking you, is there is there not any little piece of you that when you express when you share, or people see the successes that you've had, and the response is you're light skinned. Right? Is there no response in you that says, yes, yes, light skinned being light skinned has helped me, and I've worked hard, and I've come from a certain place to another place through how I've applied myself. Is there nothing that that sparks in you that says it's not all about Well, thank you for clarifying. So no. No. There is a response in me that does acknowledge that having because I even say it in the show. I say having lighter skin has allowed me to have easier relationships with white people. And so some of the things that have happened to some of my black friends, have never ever happened to me. You know? So, yes, I do acknowledge that my physical appearance has helped play a part in my success. However, number 1 is not to the degree that white people's physical, you know, it helps to play could play a part in their success because I don't look white. I just look biracial, although I'm not biracial. And number 2, it's I still wanna echo my desire to extend whatever that benefit is. Mhmm. And then right. And I acknowledge as a benefit. I even acknowledge that personally to friends that there is a benefit. I want that extended to everyone. And it's hard for a lot of black people to hear when I say that. And it's even hard for me to say it in this moment that there is a benefit to being light skinned. But I mean, I've been radically honest throughout, so why not continue to be so? There is. You know? The we live in a world of how you look. And when you have white people at the top of the cast, I mean, for lack we have a caste system in the unite in US. And when those who align themselves closer to that, you know, ideal in the highest cast, they're gonna get, you know, looked upon favorably. And that has happened to me at times in my life. So my mother even commented on it on it at lunch. What was that? Not last this weekend. 2 weekends ago. So she I took her to lunch for her birthday to a very, very posh I like to go to posh restaurants. To a very, very posh restaurant. And the waiter and I the waiter happened to be a Caucasian white gentleman, and we were just, like, gay guy too. And, you know, I and we're just laughing and talking. And my mother's like, am I even at this table? Oh, or whatever. And I was saying, and I look just like this because I had just had a haircut 2 weeks ago. And I said, yeah. And she was like, you know, you have a, you know, a certain way about you where with your light skin, they find that more palatable. Mhmm. Mhmm. My mother commented on it at lunch. Yeah. So here's I think there would be so, yes, maybe you would get some pushback or some interesting responses from the black community and the things you've just said. Here's what I think you might get some pushback from, like, a portion of the white community. I put forth kind of a dual tension in this kind of lighter skin experience. Right? Yes. I do. One is the benefit, and you acknowledge it, and you heavily acknowledge it. And one is the detraction from other qualities of yourself that have led to your outcomes in life. You acknowledge that you've been benefited, but there's been a whole lot of other things that you've done as a human being to get to where you are, right, with, let's say, that extra support of being light lighter. And I think there would be white people who wonder. Even when coming back to it again and saying, I understand that Andre, and I'm interested. Do you have any of that feeling? And you said, yes. I do. And then you went right back to talking about the benefits. And they might say to you, Andre, like, why aren't you focusing a little bit more, putting a little more energy in the, I worked hard to get to where I am. And, you know, I know that, you know, success is a community experience, and I've been helped. And but I also like, my success is not simply a product of my lighter skin. Right? No. No. No. It's not. But I they would wonder the difference in the energy you put between those 2. Answer this question. Yep. I can answer this question. So the Maybe you're just maybe you're just humble and shy about it. Or No. No. No. Well, that sort of. But the reason for the difference is because so much of success in the United States hinges on being socially acceptable. And what kinda like what my mother was highlighting at lunch is that I have a skin color that is socially palatable for a lot of people. So, like, yes, I have worked hard, but it would be remiss of me to deny saying, okay. And there are and there are dark skinned black people who've worked harder and who have done 10 times more than I have, right, who are mega successful. But and you have to query those people about their experience. But part of part of part of part of leaning into talking about those benefits is to emphasize how much race is kind of overemphasized and appearances overemphasized in the United States. Right? And that's not to say all the other things aren't valid, but we, I mean, we live in a country where appearance matters. And, you know, I mean, in in so I mean, in so many ways, it dictates how much salary you make, how many interviews you get, all sorts of things. And I'm just saying, I mean, o openly acknowledging that I, to some, have an appearance that is preferable irrespective of all the other things that I have. So are you so let me reflect back what I what I heard you say in, like, a different way and get your, you know, sense of is this how you feel or not? Because I think there'd be some people who wonder, like, why you would or whether you think you are accepting a diminishment of your hard work by letting it lie, right? Letting it lie in some way that, you know, hey, but you got lighter skin, but you got lighter skin. Because, you know, there will be white people who I could see that, yeah. Who react to the racial conversation, sometimes because they think that simply talking about white and black as being determinative takes away from what you acknowledge. Like there are white people who have worked very hard for their success, and they wanna say, but I have but I have worked hard. Now what the feedback to them would be, you know, and you could work hard, but you could still have more support or less obstacles put in your way because you're white. Like, those two things can both be the case. Right? Yeah. They can both be true. Yeah. And so and so I guess I wonder, do you feel the need to emphasize so much more the acknowledgement of the benefit that you have by being light skinned versus you pushing back against the detraction of just saying of making it seem sometimes like it's just your light skin that allows you to have this success. Do you feel like is that because you worry that talking too much about the response the personal responsibility for success would diminish the conversation about the benefit of light skin, that it would that that there's they're so unequal to conversate the narrative around personal responsibility is so strong that you need to emphasize the other one that doesn't get as much of a as much time in the national in the, you know, social community conversation that we have. Well, I don't want to diminish it. I know you've diminished what? I don't. Well, I don't I don't want to diminish the amount. I don't want to diminish the outsized role that appearance does play I know. That appearance plays in in the support once receives to become successful. And I wonder let me put it in different words. I wonder if a white, some white people, I don't think all white people, but some white people might say that maybe you're doing something in reverse that we critique white people of doing, which is that sometimes around the conversation of racism and the way that it plays a role in hindering lives, that to have and we've talked about this before, to have that conversation diminishes the role of personal responsibility. And so you have this instinctive white reaction that says, Yeah, but people work hard. White people work hard, and black people could work harder. You know, there's this instinctive reaction, like to talk about race is to diminish the role of personal responsibility. Right? And I wonder, what I think I see it slightly different. I see to talk about race is to show the outsized role that it plays. Like, I see it just slightly differently, maybe. I don't know. Yeah. So your so your focus your focus on right. So I was talking about what the white person would what we would say to a white person who diminishes the role of racism, right, of racism because they don't want to give too much time to it because they think it diminishes the role of personal responsibility and maybe the role that is they think it's played in their own lives. Right? Yes. And what they might say to you is, or what they might wonder, I don't you know, what some might white people might wonder is, are you doing the reverse where you worry to talk about personal responsibility and the way that that has led to your own success would be in some way to diminish the conversation about how your lighter skin The answer to your question is yes. Another yeah. It's yes. So, then because what I just said is I don't want to diminish the outside. I wanna highlight the outside's role. So the answer is yes. I'm doing the reverse. Meaning to bring up personal responsibility, for me, diminishes what race plays in all of this. Right? So the answer is yes. So what? This is just to get this is just to get a sense in your mind. So I get that motivation. I understand that motivation. I really am curious about how you feel about these factors in your in your life in your life. I know you can't speak for all people, but in your life, you achieved we won't talk about whether, you know, we won’t label you as success or not success. We had that conversation, about what we determine what we believe as being successful. Right? But let's just say the success that you've had. Right? What is what is the probability of achieving that success if you had lighter darker skin in your mind? Oh, I have no idea. Because I don't know life from that perspective. I just know I just know dark skinned black people who've been my personal friends and who've told me their stories, professionals. And I mean as adults, and I mean, even as children. Even as oh, lord. Lord. I can tell you some story. Lord. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know life from a dark skin perspective. I can't speak to that, but I do have friends who are darker skinned, black people, and they told me the things that they have gone through in their lives. And in school settings, in in I mean, grammar school, primary school, on through university and graduate school. And when people look at you, they feel something about your appearance. And your appearance matters to that person, and they choose whether or not to support you. Mhmm. It does. It really, really, really, really does. So you so we don't we don't we don't have to put a percentage on it, but your general sense is that probability would decrease because of the kinds of things that you heard and would expect to experience some more of if you had dark darker skin. And so I would wonder when well, I would for me, if I had darker skin, much darker skin, I would wonder how many people would have been indifferent to my success. Mhmm. My desire to be successful. And remember, we success isn't in, like, so many things. It's in the degrees we get. It's how when we buy a when we buy a home, when we take our children to the doctor. You know, I mean, because what how long survive you know, I guess, defining success is having a thriving life. Like, for example, like, I was COVID positive. Right? And, and I did a virtual visit with my doctor. And he prescribed this medication, which I swear to God saves lives. It worked with 1 and I took all of those into this medication. But with one dose, I felt right as right. And it and it and I text a friend, and I was like, girl, this shit is real. They need to send this to African countries because it will clear your code up like that. And the person said, you know, health care inequity is very, very real. And I happen to have a doctor who's been an advocate for me for the past 20 years despite poor eating habits. And I have to wonder had that, you know, you know, because I had another friend who said, oh, I have a black doctor and I'm so excited. So it made me wonder because my doctor is not black, but my doctor has still been my advocate for 20 years. It makes me wonder that black people were going to non-black doctors who are not advocating for their optimal health outcome? You know? We have, like, for example, black people are prone to high blood pressure, prone to kidney problems, all these different things. And my doctor since my twenties have been really aggressive about monitoring those things. One of the reasons I'm in health now. Right? But what if I were, you know, a black person going to a non-black doctor who's largely just dismissive until something major happens, then, you know, you see how that's a huge difference in life, how my COVID was cleared in the afternoon almost, and other people have to suffer all because of a doctor's application of their expertise. And it was the doctor. I didn't insist that he prescribe anything. I just told we were corresponding about other stuff, you know, year-end medical stuff. What about other things? And he said, well, if you want, I can prescribe something. And I said, okay. So I don't have to suffer through the symptoms. Cleared it up like that. So for you, it sounds like you tend to focus a lot more on I've noticed in our conversations, not that you don't say they exist, but not the things that inhibit success, but the lack of the supports that Yes. Moves Yes. Forward. And so your sense is that, yes, you've done well and done right by yourself in in achieving success. There are things that you did in terms of working hard and otherwise that that have helped you along the way. And those things coming to leading you to flourish in the way that you are were aided by the extra set of supports you feel you got by having lighter skin. That's a plausible argument. That is a plausible Is that your is that your general sense? That's my general sense. That is that's my general sense as I compare my lived experience being black and all these domains of my life, medicine, profession, social, you know, whatever, to my friends lived experience in the domain in those same domains, and those friends are darker skin than I. And so you wanna say, yes, personal responsibility and whatever its forms matters, but it gets enough of the light of day. And so when you think of the these factors as they've combined to help you to flourish again in the way that you are now, you want to focus heavily on those levels of support and then the inequities of support racially because not that you think they're determinative solely of success, but they're under they're neglect it's a neglected factor in your mind as being taken care of. And that's why you focus on it. Yes. Even when getting responses from people that, you know, could feel and could be seen as diminishing your own personal volition and motivation and yes. I mean, clearly, I worked hard to have to be in a financial position where I have insurance because, I mean, I didn't pay for the medication. It's all covered. But I mean and that's that in of itself is a blessing. Right? There are tons of people in the United States who have to pay for the medic the medication they take. I, you know, I don't. It's all a part of, you know, employee sponsor, whatever. So I see the situation as my hard work and my, you know, achievement at work has allowed me to be able to reap this benefit. But, you know, this one can argue that, you know, being light skin has helped play a part in that success at work. Make maybe you're more socially palatable. And then also when you extend that work success into other domains of your life, maybe it does beget more and more support. I mean, the best way to receive support is to have support already. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingraceshow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. What is your perception of what cancel culture means? What is your perception of what people find problematic with cancel culture? And where do you lie on where what part of this thing called cancel culture is positive and what part is negative. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.