Do White Americans Feel Entitled Because of Their Skin Color?

You talk a lot about this idea of the psychology of ownership. What how do you think that materializes across the white population? So let's ask a really specific question. I ask back quickly. Do you justification. A justification. You think I carry around a feeling of ownership over black people? And well today if yes if yes, in in what way does that manifest? We are in in a unique situation with respect to race because black people were once the property of white people. And I want to delve into the psychology of that, and that may be really difficult for some who watch this video to hear. We were once their property. Yeah. And when you own property, you've owned property, you feel as though you can do as you, please with that property. And there's an entire framework, an entire psychology around ownership and the value you derived from that ownership. And I think one of the I think one of the reasons that maybe moments struggle to become movements is with respect to race. There is a contingent of people who don't wanna release that psychology. I mean, an entire not on ownership, but the psychology of well. What I mean by well, you are part of the group that were once owners. You're the descendant of the group that was once owners, and there is a there is a comfort in that because we all know that humans rank things. Right? That's human nature to rank, and you rank higher than others. Mhmm. And, also, an entire society has been constructed to allow that rank to help you have advantage in life. Some wittingly that you know of, that you, you know, wittingly take advantage of, others unwittingly that you just passively take advantage of by virtue of being part of a group. Sure. And when you ask people to relinquish a certain framework of thinking, especially now I think in the clear kind of George Floyd moments, it's obvious, but it's easy to, to return to your safety zone of thinking about your life, especially when you feel threatened, you know, in in some smaller moment that is not a national international, you know, you know, headline grabbing thing. Right? Maybe a black person gives you bad attitude or whatever at a store or cuts you off in traffic, whatever it may be. And those small moments still give people an opportunity to retain that psychology and to live in that motivation. The motivation of I'm ranking higher, and that feels good. Yeah. And so when I say I wanted to challenge you, I'm I want what I'm trying to say is that when and you know this. You understand the human mind that when you are asking people to give up something that has literally been the bedrock of the of their being, right, as a white person, which that is really hard to do. And I think that's one of the reasons why moments become struggle become movements, and then you have to ask yourself, okay, as maybe the white person ask his or herself. You know? Well, how much do I need to do? Like, I'm willing to alter, but do I have to radically alter my worldview all at once, or can I evolve it over time? Yeah. How it did with homosexuals. Right? And of which I'm a part of that group. And that's because that's another thing. I'm like, this is interesting. So at one time, we were booed. Now we're on how we host redecorating shows. Like, you know, and I think, and I think I'm just using that as an analogy because it's the closest thing I know in my own life because I am gay. Yeah. But I you know, that had to evolve over time, and we live in such a young country, and a lot of people forget that the US is really young, vis a vis a lot of these other countries. And that has grown and changed so fast that I think sometimes we, you know, we step back and maybe regress a little just because we're fearful of so much change, so much alteration to a worldview at once. Does that make sense? Yeah. I think it does. So just so I'm clear, so, you know, you said you wanted to challenge me. I'm assuming you want to get my thoughts, my responses to that. Yes. Just so that I'm clear on what you said that in response to something that I shared about what I think would lead from a moment to a movement. Right? And are you saying that you are skeptical about that being that you agree that that sense of trust and that sense of benefit of the doubt? Are you saying that you I'm saying it's fleeting. I believe it's fleeting. You do you believe so you believe it's fleeting because of this sense of advantage, the psychology of some kind of advantage Yes. That, kinda overcomes that ability to trust. Yes. In the smaller moments of our lives, when and I believe because, you know, in the smaller moments of our lives are when we're really challenged. Right? When you have your own interaction. Yeah. And that that's what I'm saying, what you just summarized. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you so what I'm what I'm sensing so I agree with you that any kind of interracial trust would need to be enduring for it to be effective. Right? So and you are saying so what I'm hearing you say, if I'm correct, you're saying you just don't think it could be enduring because there's this other psychological dynamic that is a headwind. Right? It's a in the short term, yeah, in the short term, yes. I do think there is a worry among some portion of the white population, and I'll even some substantial portion of the white population about what they'd have to give up creating greater equity. I mean, they're Let's talk about that. Yeah. And so and I wanna say something also on the on the other end of it, which is just because there are on average so if you say on average, is a white person concerned about what they have to give up? You know that that advantage of being white, I it would have to be yes. Does that mean that every one of those white people feel that to a degree that it really makes a difference in their real their racial relationships? I would say no. I would say there's people who are low on that scale, and I would say there's people in the middle, and I'd say there's people who are really high. And my concern are the people who are really high and, you know, high ish. But I do like to speak to slavery very specifically Yeah. Because of the psychology of ownership. I'm and I remember having this conversation with Latino man a few years ago, and I said, yes. You all have the other races of people have been, you know, discriminated against, done wrong, whatever parlance you wanna use by white people, but I said it is slightly different. I said and I and I illustrated it at the time because I said, there was a day in this country, and I pointed to another friend of ours where I would've bid his property. And he could've done with me whatever he amused. He could've taught me to read. He could've beat the hell out of me. He could've sold me. He could've fucked me. Yeah. Whatever. Because I'm his property. Yeah. And the psych and the psychology of ownership is powerful, and you're talking about something that you once owned now wants to be on your level. Mhmm. That's all I'm saying is that it's powerful. Yeah. And there are no undercurrents in a in a society today. When you talk a lot about this idea of the psychology of ownership, what how do you think that materializes across the white population? So let's ask a really specific question. No. I ask that quickly. Do you justification. A justification. You think I carry around a feeling of ownership over black people? And in what way if yes if yes, in what way does that manifest? No. No. No. I'm not in how can I say this? Not in ownership in the sense of a bill of sale. Okay. But ownership, and stay with me here, in the sense that you have a right to my life, whether it's to dress the way we dress, whether it's to take copyright away from our songs, whether you have you have an inherent right to my life. Mhmm. And that's what I mean when I say ownership. And it manifests itself in my opinion as a justification for when wrongs are done. Meaning, I'm justified in this and maybe a racist action or discriminatory behavior because I, by virtue, I have a right to his black life. Mhmm. And that's honestly what I when I saw the tape of, you know, George Floyd having the life, you know, draining out of him, that was my overarching thought. I said this Derek Chauvin is doing this because he believes he has a right to. He has he can do with this he has a right to this black life, and he can do with it whatever he feels even if it pleases him to end it. Yeah. It's literally what I thought here in 9 minutes. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't I think that's probably right that that was a component of his psychology that was at play there. I guess I just don't really know that again, this might be living in different worlds in the kind of course of our lives. I just don't think that psychology is as I just wide as widespread as you as you thought. I didn't I know it is. And I did I wholeheartedly categorically just I just Tell me something. I mean, and I really don't take offense to this. I want you to know. Like, I want you too yeah. This is I want you to be honest. What would, like, what would I have done? So I can get I can own that if I see opportunities in the world, I'm going to feel a sense of confidence to going after them. Right? And that that feeling of confidence will have been has been given extra support by the fact that I'm white. Okay? So that that's something that I can that I can own, and feel is probably true to my experience. Okay? But I also know that if I were to come across a situation where I was wanting to achieve something, wanting to take advantage of some opportunity, I would feel a sense of a of a barrier when I felt that I was overstepping what was in someone else's domain, in in a you know, including someone who is black. So I just don't know the degree to which I am, you know, material materializing a sense, that I own whatever you as a black person have or have created. What we're okay. You personally know because of your own makeup, your own psychology, but remember my definition of own as right to your life. Mhmm. So I have a right to for example, let's you said, you know, achieving something. Right? And when you said college admissions came up, there are people who believe that they have a right to a space by virtue of at a school, by virtue of being white over a black person even if that black person is better qualified or, you know, test better, etcetera. Yeah. They have, like, you have no you have I have a right to your life, meaning the space at this particular school, not the school that we went to. I'm saying in general that as a case in point, that a space at a school that a black person wants, a white person has a right to it if they want it by virtue of having and that's what I mean by ownership. Like, I have a right to your life. I have a right to into infiltrate, be a part, do whatever I want in your community or with or around you by virtue of the history of this country. I have a right to your life. Yeah. I mean yeah. No. I get I get what you're I get what you're saying, and that's why I kinda spoke about the kind of confidence in in trying to attain some kind of goal, position but in the space as you put it. But if let's go with that. Because when you expound on that further, when you that's fine. Have all the confidence. There are a lot of white people with confidence. But when you don't get the opportunity and I get the opportunity and you have the feeling, wait a minute. Why like, hold up. I know I'm better than him. I have I don't care maybe if he has more experience, etcetera. I have a right to that space. Yeah. That's not confidence. That's superiority. Yeah. Yeah. And I just I again, I guess I would I guess I just haven't I haven't seen anything in I have seen things in my life that show me that some people feel that. So, I don't doubt that that exists, and I don't even doubt that it exists more or less pretty expansively. What I what I am skeptical of, and I haven't seen anything in my experience or in research to suggest, is that that is something that is universally felt to some major degree. So I feel like I You would know a lot of people who You wouldn't, and the research wouldn't bear it because you all aren't black. Mhmm. Yeah. But it's talking about a white experience. Right? So say a little bit more because I'm not I'm not sure I understand why I wouldn't see it. I'm talking I'm not necessarily talking about a white experience. I'm talking about a white motivation of which I'm the target. Yeah. And that's why your experience you the thing what I'm just what I'm telling you right now, you're never gonna have this experience because you're never gonna be the target. No one's ever gonna say I have a right to Todd's life. Yeah. Because nobody used to own you. Sure. No. I under I get what you're saying. The perpetrator of, let's say, an abuse is the word you like to use, still has an experience of themselves, or their friends and their co, you know, co group members also have an experience of them. And I guess I just I think I know a lot of people who would be fine giving up that position. It's not that they wouldn't be disappointed, but I don't think that they carry around with them a sense that they deserve it because they're white. Well, ask your friends to search their hearts. I'm not saying it's what I what I I'm not saying it's every single, like, white person in America. But what I am saying is that this is an ethos in America. Mhmm. It's an ethos with a pretty grand undercurrent. And the reason I feel I know this is because my friends and I have been targets of it. Let me give you a specific example that I'm thinking about where a friend who a friend has a friend and the who is white. So the friend I know is black, who has a friend who is white. Who's white. Okay. And this, particular, you know, white friend was very deliberate about dating black people Mhmm. And going and almost, like, going after them. Right? And almost too well, not almost, but to the direct observance of my friend and that person's black friend. Like, you seem to have a very deliberate desire to go after people in in our race to date them. Right? And there was one particular person that white friend was interested in, and that and the person was not receptive. The person was like, oh, you know, I'm not interested. Yeah. And but he but that that the non the non-interested party had not met the white friend. And the white friend proceeds to tell my friend who is black, you make sure you tell him that I'm white. Make sure you tell him that because I've seen this play out all the time. Make sure make sure you emphasize that I'm that I am white. Meaning, by virtue of being white, that person should want me. It makes me more appealing, and I have a right to go after this person because of that white status. Mhmm. This happens. This is an ethos. This is a real thing. I'm not this isn't delusion. I'm not making this up. I'm not doubting that that there is a sense of white greater white value among white people, that exists in the world, or that exists in the country or that even that it exists in some, again, across a broad range of the population. So I don't doubt that at all. I guess what I guess what I'm go ahead. No. Go ahead. Well, what I was adding to that is that giving them the self-assurance to be a part of, to I don't wanna use take, but that's the word that comes to mind, what they please. Yeah. Yeah. I think what I'm trying to say is I think there's a parallel to a previous part of our conversation, which is what I'm putting what I'm putting out there is you expressed so let's go back to the idea of physical harm, threat of physical harm, and I expressed based on history, right, based on real lived experience and the experience of those people around you, I understand not only the fear and the desire to protect your physical being. I also understand how it would make you cautious and skeptical in your relationships with white people, So I get that. And that you don't know when the difference there's no way you can possibly know, at least, you know, at the beginning when you're first meeting somebody, which side of the ledger they're on, right, or where on the spectrum they are because it's usually not either or it's, you know, it's an it's a spectrum of intensity of, you know, one's feeling, you know, one's propensity to inflict harm, you know, across racial lines. So I don't so I understand all of that. And at the same time, I think we were able to acknowledge that there's probably a lot of white people that would not do you harm. You would I acknowledge the complete rationality of that skepticism and that caution, given what you feel could happen, and at the same time there are still a lot of people that wouldn't do that who you might be skeptical of, and you're skeptical because you don't know who they are, and that makes sense. That that dynamic completely makes sense. And I'm just offering that maybe that's the same dynamic here, that I understand why you might worry, feel, be cautious about, be concerned about, whatever words you would use, that there are people across the white population that believe they are superior and through their belief that they're superior, they believe they should have what they want, or have a greater right to what they want. I just also think, at the same time, that there is a range of degrees to which that is the case for any white person, and that what I would suggest to you is there are a lot of white people who and that's why I was using the word confidence, who yeah, they might come off as really confident, but I don't know that. No, Todd. No, Todd. This is not confidence. Yeah. No. I'm not I'm not suggesting no. I'm not suggesting that it's confidence. I know you're not talking about confidence. Let me let me say the backward way. I'm gonna suggest that there's a lot of white people who really do not have a feeling that they have a what you put a right to a Black person's life or whatever that life encompasses, and that there could be the possibility. The reason I keep saying confidence I don't want you to think that I'm what I'm saying to you is that all the ways that you have seen as white superiority, some sense of white superiority and ownership, is just confidence. I'm really not trying to say that. I really mean that. What I'm trying to say, on the other end, is that there might be people who are confident, who show a certain kind of behavior that looks like it, but is not it, and I just think there are a lot of white people who really don't feel that sense of ownership. I think there are a lot that do, and to greater or lesser degrees, But I think they're I think it's possible to be a white person and acknowledge the rights that black people have to their lives, and what that means. I mean, do you don't do you think that's possible, I guess? I accept your perspective. It's not gonna convince me out of mind, but I accept you’re Okay. Okay. Oh, good. No. I really have to go so I could cope. I know. I know. Probably not the best the best spot to end on. But We can have we can continue this. I mean, this has been thoroughly enjoyable. Yeah. It also makes me really glad that you're my friend. I know. Maybe, you know, like, because what we're doing, I love these kinds of exercises. Is it exploring ideas? And we're giving our, you know, both the physical space and it's we've cultivated a space of nonjudgment. And like I just said, I didn't just say, Tom, you're crazy. I said, I accept your perspective. You know, like, you know, I just love this. I love this. So I'm gonna ask you I mean, there's a question that I probably gonna I mean, I don't have to ask you right away, but I will ask you at some point in probably the next time we talk. And I don't wanna, like, catch you off guard with it. So I'm just gonna put it out there. Is there little that you could ever do to catch me off guard? Oh, I just want yeah. Anyways, I guess what I would wonder, and we can, again, talk about this later. What I would wonder is what would show you differently? What would it how you be able to see? What would you see that would make you convinced of a white person? Let's not say even say a broad range of a white person not feeling that sense of ownership and that right over a Black life or, again, what's encompassed in a Black life like, how would you know that a white person didn't have that? What would prove that to you? Let me think on that. Think on that. Think on that. So the initial answer why I chuckled, the initial answer is nothing. Okay. So but maybe I doubt it will, but maybe my attitude will evolve. It's when you know, by the time we have our next conversation, but the initial answer is nothing. Okay. That's fair. That's an honest answer. I like that. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topicshealingraceshow.com. -As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. -When you have one cast of people creating the playbook for how another cast of people get to live and manifest and present in this world, that's power. And all I'm saying is that the white people, like I told you before, I said they've been in charge from the day they landed on this country till today, and that is not happenstance. That's not look. That's not being better in life. That's called that in my opinion, that's deliberate. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. 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