Adopting Black Culture: Insensitive Violation Or Desired Cultural Sharing?

Thank you for tuning in the healing race. In this video, we continue discussing what makes some members of the black community upset when parts of their culture are adopted by others. What is at the root of those feelings? How can you adopt parts of another culture, particularly one that has been historically exploited and persecuted in a way that is respectful and accepted? To make it even more personal and real, Andre and I discussed an incident from early in our friendship where I expressed wanting to put my hair in cornrows, a traditionally black hairstyle. What about that idea didn't and still doesn't sit right with Andre? And what might explain the different feelings people have about the spread of their cultures to others? Let's get to that conversation now. Enjoy. At the end of the day, let's say you as an individual saw someone in your network, a white person with cornrows and you had some sort of reaction to it. If at the end of the day, through conversation person in my network would dare come around me looking like that. No. But listen. So would if the issue is one of skepticism of motivation, you may still counsel them. Hey. Listen. Out there in the world, you're gonna get blowback from some people. Right? You may still counsel them in that way. But let's say someone knows what their motivation is, and they know their motivation is appreciation. They saw some sort of form of expression with air, and they're like, I really like that, and I wanna try it. Right? And you took them at their word. You knew you knew this person, or you talked it through, and you understood they really are coming from that place. How would you then feel about it if you knew and felt confident of their motivation? How would you then feel about it? What's that? The same. You'd still feel the same? Why would you still feel the same? I appreciate your motivation, but your motivation is severely lacking the weight of history. Because what about feel the same. You know, I mean, you're lacking, especially in the case of cornrows. You're I mean, it's almost as though to me, it almost feels like you're mocking the like I said, the way the ways in which Africanness and even identifying with African identity have been put down. Like, I admire that this you're not coming from a level of motivation, but I mean Why would it feel mocking to you? I'm really sure you because I struggle sometimes, I struggle in the United States. I really, really do because there's a certain thing called good taste. And just in good taste, why would you do some shit like that? So I understand that you have you have a good motivation, but just in good taste, given the history, maybe you don't maybe you put your personal needs aside and air on the side of being sensitive to a people who may or may not be offended. What's the bad taste though? What's the bad taste? The bad taste is engaging in something engaging in something in a culture that has nothing to do. Like, for example, that has nothing to do with you. Right? So that you're not a part of. And especially when there's been suffering in that community behind the very thing that you want to sport again that that that you like. Right? In this case, a particular hairstyle. And I had this very personal moment around this, early. So like I said, I am a cook, and I was watching, a wonderful, wonderful chef out of Australia make this he was traveling throughout, Thailand, Laos, Vietnam, a lot of countries, and I love Asian food. From all cultures, I love lai. I adore it. It is my passion, Asian food. And this weekend, on Friday night, I swear to God, I made some braised pork that was out of sight. I've tucked a pork shoulder and cut it and sliced it and marinated in, like, 7 or 8 different spices, and it was so Asian. It was amazing. And I thought to myself, I said, I should write an Asian cookbook. And this is just me literally in rap city over what I had just created, eating it. And I was like, Andre, that's offensive. You first of all, you are nowhere near any kind of Asian. And how are you gonna go and represent these people and their food, especially if you've never studied it. Right? Mhmm. Now do I know how to make so I'm getting to the point where I like to make Asian food in my home more than I buy it out, because I think the food that the Chinese food, the Thai curries that I make, and all of those things, I make it better than what I get in a restaurant. But what do I look like going out into the world, you know, public I guess, I'm publicizing that now, but trying to say I know better than these people's culture. Even if my because I'm not going for a motivation of exploiting Asian culture. I generally appreciate all the various food, like I said, from all the countries. But that would be insensitive to me, for me as not even being a part of any Asian culture or community to do something like that. It's kind of in a cultural appropriation, and it would be in poor taste even if my motivation is to honor this cuisine that I absolutely love. Like, I'm we're trying to get into a very fabulous and chic Asian restaurant for my upcoming birthday Yeah. In another city that we're going to. And I'm just I'm like, oh my god. We gotta have Chinese food. Gotta have, like, authentic Chinese food. And so you gotta remember, you have to order the duck a day in advance, so make sure you order the duck. Like, this and I and I and I know how Peking duck is made. Absolutely wonderful. But just to me, it's in poor taste to sort of insert yourself even if your intention is good or not from a level of place in something without with without any regard for the history. And if you do so, try to do it in the most responsible manner as possible. That's why I said, I would still have the same reaction just because it just seems like a big disregard, especially knowing the relationship between blacks and whites in this country and so much vitriol that's come at us for, you know, being the descendants of African people, and how the ways in which Africanness and African expression have been stymied and even exploited by European cultures. How art was stolen, artifacts, and all these different things. There's just there's way more history in it than to say, I think that hairstyle looks good. It's almost kind of naive and glib. And, you know, like, to engage in that, to even So your feeling that it's in bad taste is okay. You may have your personal reasons for wanting to express yourself, in this way and appreciate in appreciation. But because not just that this is tied to identity, let's say cornrows specifically. It's tied to history as well. But it's tied to but because it's there's a history of either making fun of or discriminating based on hair or exploiting, you know, exploiting and taking and then making profits on ways of creating or expressing, you feel like that hits a sore point of history. Yes. And so it's in bad taste because it is reason I'm not gonna write a Chinese cookbook. Yes. So in the in the in the example of your Asian your Asian cuisine, what's the issue? The issue is saying I've made this kind of Asian dish or the issue is making money on making a service side? Me put putting myself in the world as an authority on Asian cuisine. Sure. Number 1, not being Asian. And number 2, I'm not in an Asian community, and I've never studied the cuisine formally in a culinary. Yes. No. I think that totally makes sense. And that's kind of the means that have been made about Asians in a and I don't even, yeah, I don't even like the term Asian. Right? Because they're distinct cultures. You have Chinese people, Vietnamese people, Laotian people, Thai people. You have the Malay. And I've and I've actually been to not China, but I've been to most of those countries. Mhmm. And even within those countries, like, one of the most diverse places on the planet, and it's ironic to say it, is Singapore. Like, you meet all kinds of people there. Europeans, Africans, all sorts of Asian people. And I just would want to give a sense of respect, and part of that is, you know, unless that I'm some sort of direct participant in or anything like that, I just would see an import taste for me to try to publicly go out and could proclaim myself an authority on Chinese cooking, for example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I my home really, really well. Yeah. No. I understand that. That that makes sense, to me, that’s proclaiming something that you're that you have not achieved at least or proclaiming yourself as equal to someone who has done whatever they have done in learning the cuisine. So that that more makes sense to me than just kind of a fashion choice than you make or, you know, the spreading of culture. But they say, oh, I like Chinese food. I'm gonna write a Chinese cookbook. They're like Yeah. You. Do you see Chinese people writing African cookbooks or southern African American cookbooks? No. But there are people around the world who try to, let's say, learn French cuisine, and they go learn in some sort of formal intensive way how to do French cuisine. Yeah. But what people of color have exploit what people of color have exploited French people? You know what I mean? Like, what I'm saying, I think when you start getting into the territory of dealing with people of color, there there's some sensitivities there. I can understand their sensitivities, and I can I guess I guess I would wonder about let's say someone who so let's take it out of the realm of just a hairdo? Right? And that I understand has a lot of meaning, but something that's, let's say, easy to replicate. Go have someone who knows how to do cornrows, and at least they would try to, you do it on hair like this. I don't know how successful they would be. But let's take some form of African cuisine, right, which the learning curve on that would be a lot greater. Right? What if someone went to Kenya, right? And learned some form of East African cuisine and really did it in an intensive way. And they're just, they're not African, but they were welcomed in, they were taught, right? This was even done in meditation, in in in certain forms of like Buddhist meditation. There are people who are not of Asian descent, who went to, let's say, Nepal or to India or somewhere, you know, or, you know, Daoism is another example, who go learn with somebody who, you know, some authority. And they go through the steps that anyone would have to go through, and they come out on the other end, would you still have a challenge with that if they actually embedded themselves in the community to work with people? I think the thing and I think these things are not equal. And the sort of litmus test or a bit of a litmus test is the ability for economic profit. Right? So if a person went and studied Kenyan cuisine, let's say some white man, right Mhmm. And really and studied, and they were welcomed in, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. And like I said, what is your motivation, so for writing this Kenyan cookbook? And in what way could you have supported Kenyan authorship of said cookbook? Right? So, actually, used to work with a guy who was married who was once married to a Kenyan woman. So unbeknownst, you created an example. It's actually deeply personal to me. And he and I ironically, he and I were spending some time together in Singapore. Yeah. And we were and we were just talking and in Thailand too. He and I were in Thailand together for work. And we were, talking about some cultural adjustments in his marriage. This white man was an Australian man, or he is an Australian man. And I remember I said, can I offer you some advice on loving black people? Because there was something there was things his wife was do would do in the marriage that she didn't quite understand. And I offered him some advice, on approaches to dealing with his, at the time, ex-wife, but they had a child together. So she was they were very prevalent in one in one another's lives raising a child. Right? So when you when you talk about people who are in in embedded in communities, the yeah. That is possible. Let's say this gentleman would have written some sort of Kenyan cookbook, right, for whatever motivation. And I think when it comes to Africans, there's been such a degree of economic exploitation. My looking on giving the side eye to that has to do with, are you in some way trying to leave these people out of economic opportunity? Right? Mhmm. Number 1. When I think of something like meditation that, yes, someone can go start some sort of for-profit meditation, whatever, but largely, you just wanna propagate the practice because probably because you think the good it will do in the world. That's a little bit different. Right? But I think there's some very real tangible like, I mean, when you're talking about a hairstyle, you know, the code the way you address and how we present has history behind it. Right? And so you I've turned the side eye or give the side eye to that because you have to ask yourself, is a person really knowledgeable with history, or is this in some sort of way a backward joke with respect to the history? So I take what you're saying, but I don't think these things are necessarily all equal. I think for me, the economic inducement has a lot to do with it. Right? Especially when you're talking about black people. I mean, sort of not songs we've written that have been redone by white artists, etcetera. Then maybe that doesn't happen so much today, but in the beginning days of radio, that totally was the case. Right? And so being able to protect oneself, from economic exploitation is very key to me. Yeah. I guess I could understand it from the perspective of asking the question, well, why isn't there why aren't there a lot of Kenyans who are spreading Kenyan cuisine around the world and part of that being inequalities that have been built up over time. And, you know, let's say an American or a European would be in a better place to spread Kenyan cuisine than a Kenyan themselves. Right? And possibly. What's that? Possibly. Possibly. Yeah. And so I can understand that that the same level of opportunity doesn't exist for the Kenyan themselves to spread their cuisine. I mean to your I take your point on the difference between meditation and cuisine. At the same time, acknowledging your point, I do think that cuisine plays a special role in connecting people across the world. Oh, I know it does. Yeah. So I do think that there is not just But I'm still not gonna go write a Chinese cookbook. Yeah. Well, I'm just saying that you you're you were saying the difference is, you know, benefiting, you know, that there's some sort of larger positive intention in spreading, let's say, meditation. Got it. I see what you're saying. And I'm just saying spreading cuisine can actually have some pretty strong you know, like, by serving Kenyan food, people get to understand that there's Kenyan culture and maybe become more interested in and even more to my point that economic profit should come to Kenya or to Kenyans. Right? So that's why I said, like, that's why I kinda go back to that. I'm like, I do acknowledge there is a positive externality to use because I majored in econ. I didn't go anywhere with econ like mister Roland Fryer, but I did major in econ. I do I get I take that there's the same Yeah. Positive externality. Right? But what I'm also saying is that because that positive externality exists, that much more reason to make sure that the people of the originating culture get a substantial amount of the benefit. Yeah. Yeah. So I go hearken back to motivation. I so I kind of feel as though, like, you and I are dancing around a very interesting topic with respect to the past and when is the past really the past. And I have shared with you and viewers of Healing Race that I don't believe the past is ever gone, and you just integrated to make decisions in the future. And so for me, I always come with this vein of what's the history, what's going on, what what's happened before we get to this point of, for example, me wanting to write a Chinese cookbook. And then which I kinda do, but, and then for you, it's like, well, what's what would be wrong with that if you long as you establish? And like I said, you know, as long as you establish that the person is not coming from some malevolent place or, you know, place of, you know, making fun of people or whatever. And for me, like I said, you just don't people don't know you or you or your intentions or whatever. And also that stuff can easily get mischaracterized. So I think it's better to air on the side of good taste than to just steam forward to say, well, I'm gonna do whatever I wanna do anyway. Because you're sensitive to people and their feelings about just generally your sensitive to people, but also sensitive to the things people have been through. Have been through. I really, really am. So I'm not one of these people. So because you can say, oh, well, I was abused in my childhood. Oh, well, you're not being abused now. But because I get offended when people are like, well, you all aren't slaves now. I'm like, yeah. But the legacy of all of that is still with us in very minute ways. And so out of a sense of respect, you still are sensitive to a person's and how that how that may have shaped or formed a person. Yeah. I guess where I'm going to drink around people who are in recovery. There's go ahead. It's a reason you don't drink around people who are in recovery. Have some respect, a sense of good taste, of consideration outside of your own needs. Yeah. I think there's a parallel a little bit to the past and the present. I think there's also a parallel to the whole idea of, race awareness rather than, so color awareness versus color blindness and, you know, your convert your statement that we're you understand the idea of getting to some sort of universal, you know, sense of each other, but we're not there yet. And it's and it's this is that I guess, what's hard for me around this conversation about culture is that culture is so I feel like so much of what connects us, and or connects across boundaries. That that was the food example. Like, people get to know other cultures. Yeah. I'm a black man cooking Chinese food on Friday night. I'm not I'm not saying this. I'm not saying this. Yeah. It was good too. Let's do it. Let's let here's a here's an example. Eminem. How do you feel about Eminem as a rapper? Well, I'm not I don't I'm I don't really How do you think we should approach Eminem as a rapper? As a as a as a very popular successful rapper? I mean, I can't answer that question. What I will say I it's I chuckle because when Eminem first came out among me and my friends, it was, because Eminem kept singing them songs about killing. I think at the time, maybe his girlfriend, the mother of his child, and, you know, he was closely aligned with Dre because I don’t, I don't know if Dre discovered him or what. They are Yeah. He did. I think he helped Dre discovered him? I think he discovered it to help promote him, I think. Yeah. It helped promote him. Yeah. And so, my friends and I would always say, Dre need to watch out. You're gonna end up in that basement. He's singing about so, basically, be skeptical. But I do think I mean, I can't speak for Eminem, but in my opinion, I think he's done approach to rap with a respect for the game and its original intent, which was to communicate a sense of frustration in your surroundings, and also an awareness of what your surroundings are. Mhmm. The songs of his that I remember the most are in his relationship. I think the lady’s name was Kim with his relationship. Mhmm. And just like I mean, it sounds like it was a really good emotional outlet just because it was a relationship that took him through a lot of emotional, you know, back and forth. Mhmm. So to answer your question, how we should approach that? You know, like I said, I hearken back to being responsible. So it wasn't Eminem and a whole bunch of white boys out there. We gonna do some rap. Like, I mean, I hate I guess you would say Dre de facto was the one who kind of vouched for him by promoting it. Right? Like, now this this but he got flack for it. Dre got flack for it. I know he did. And I know that I know we why he got the flack for it. However, he but, however, he continued on the message is now you should give this guy some consideration. He's real in this game. So and then once you say that often enough, and then you create enough touch points with someone like an M and M, where the culture of black people can see that enough, then, okay. You know, we we're open to this. Right? Yeah. But initially, coming from that place of skepticism, that's where I'm coming from, and that's where in this example you're given with M and M, initially, a lot of people came from that thing. Yeah. Not to say the skepticism can be overcome, but given the history, that's where the responsibility part comes in. And doing this in such a way that is responsible and not perceived as disrespectful. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I like about the example what I guess I appreciate about the example is it then becomes something that let's say white and black people can co create and create together. And that that's just something that makes me happy. I you know, it's just the idea that we Well, now look at the 2 of us. We're creating this together. Yeah. I think some of and I don't feel this feeling, but I'm just gonna channel what I think some people in the white community would say is, and this gets back to the idea of a white identity even. There's a lot of people who don't, who appear as white, who don't have a sense of having a white identity. And there's a lot of things that let's say originated by white people, but they don't feel, there's just not a lot of equivalence in the white community of things that they own as defining of their identity. Like I'll throw out just, I don't know, some examples, because we started with the majorettes. With dance, I have no idea where swing dancing came from. I don't know if it came from a black community or white community or where, what's another one? Fox the Foxtrot. Where did you think it came from? What's that? The Foxtrot or wherever it may, there's some dance in that social dance repertoire that came from white people, right? Who didn't define themselves as white. They didn't say this is a white dance, right? Although I'm sure people did that at some point, you know? And there were just be very few people in this world, white people in this country, let's say, who would see black people take up swing dancing or any of those dances that might have come from again, I don't know the history of these dances, but I have to imagine one of them probably came in a lineage from white people, originated, who would who would who would feel like there was any kind of disrespect in joining the swing dancing world, right? And so there isn't a lot, there aren't a lot of things that feel that way to groups of white people. And again, you know, I'm a little different I would, if anything it'd be kind of Jewish heritage versus, you know, white heritage, but I could see how it would be hard to understand for a white person because there's nothing that defines there, I completely disagree with you. Well, I completely disagree with you. You know, I think I completely disagree with you, and I think of 2 things. First of all, my passion for European classical music and white people very much there was a deliberate desire to and the movie Chevalier. There's a movie that I believe supposed to come premiere this year about, black man who was a prodigy in Paris with playing the violin. And the insinuation in the movie, I don't know how historically accurate it is that he helped start the French rev the first French revolution have been 5. Since the country's been in existence. But I get to what you're saying. So I disagree. I do believe that there are things that white people hold very cherished as to being a part of whiteness and not only just whiteness, but refined whiteness. And I use classical music and the prevalence and of the I mean, the diversity the lack of diversity throughout the years in playing classical music and who's booked in concert halls, etcetera. And I know it. You wanna know why? Because I have season tickets. So when I go, I'll forget I'll never get it. I'm gonna tell her. Tell me, mister. Yeah. Yeah. Tell the story. Because I I'm gonna agree with part of what you said, but I wanna clarify what I was saying. But, anyways, go ahead. I was at the symphony one night, and during the intermission and I was by a really good seats with symphony. Yeah. And I was in orchestra section, and I turned, and I looked, and there was just a sea of white faces. And I was like, wow. Like and other times, I'd be scared. And I was like, so first of all, where are the black people? There were a few, but they were literally ink drops in a gallon of milk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then number 2, I'll say I said I have to wonder. I'm not gonna say absolutely, but I have to wonder whether there are certain spaces that white people cultivate to get away from us. And that's all I'll say. Yeah. I mean, listen. I was not meaning in my comment to negate the long history of areas of spaces where black people were not welcome, right? I mean, I saw a report recently on ballet and I forget who the female is who kind of broke that boundary of being the kind of star ballet ballerina in in productions. And obviously the same as the Copeland and Lauren Anderson. The history of gymnastics. Right. And the breakthroughs of previous people previous to Simone Biles. But, you know, obviously, Simone Biles is now a cultural icon of female gymnastics. So, there were lots of spaces where black people were excluded, and they were only white spaces. And I, you know, I don't doubt that there are still people who feel that way. I guess there's just I would say there's a lot of us who present as white, who people would say are white, who feel no association at all with some artistic form that we would say is white. And maybe I'm just, maybe I just never connected with those. I mean -I think it's just you never connected with those. -Possibly. But I think there's a lot of white people who feel I'm around a lot of white people who feel the same, who don't think there's a certain hairstyle or form of dance or form of song that is distinctly white and is meant to define the white the white identity. What about expression of pride in your country? I mean, you expressed Black people often painted as unpatriotic. Yeah. I know. I know you shared that previously. We don't fulfill an expectation that white people have of how you should, manifest patriotism in the United States. Yeah. Listen. There are white nationalists. I'm not going to say that there are in groups of people who think that who connect United States to whiteness. There are certainly Or Christianity. And Christianity, right. I just, I am hard pressed. I can tell you things that define the Jewish community, right? The kippah on the head, the tallit worn under the dress, for people who are conservative or orthodox wearing certain kinds of clothing, the white shirt and the black suit, the black hat, the growing of the beard, though a lot of cultures do that. Of course, the payers, right? There's a lot of things that define Jewish identity. And I just have not seen outside of white supremacist, neo-Nazi, white nationalist circles, I have not seen a lot of things that the larger white population kind of claim as their own, as defining their identity as whiteness. And is it being of it being disrespectful for some other, you know, ethnicity or race to even, you know, think of doing those things because clearly those are those are white things. Again, this is, I understand there's plenty of bias in all, historically in all sorts of circles. But I don't think you, I guess what I'm trying to distinguish here is I don't think, I don't think you're saying, Todd, you can't wear cornrows because you are biased against me. I don't take you as being biased against me as a white person. I take you as saying this is my identity, and that being your motivation. And I just, I've never grown up around any kind of white people that have any forms of expression that they define that define their whiteness, in that same way, putting aside a bias itself, right? Like a ballerina couldn't like couldn't be a ballerina and look like be Black, right? Which I know was part of Lots of people did that. I know tons of people did that. That's what I'm saying. There's bias, and then there's, like, the like, holding on to identity, and I just haven't been around that from the white perspective. I say you have. I think you have, and maybe it just was not called out in the ways in which I'm calling out. And I say that because the Super Bowl is next weekend. And for some black history, this is the first time that 2 black quarterbacks have ever started the Super Bowl. And I remember, a comedian once saying when back when Obama was president, it was black a black comedian, but I forget his last name. And he was saying, I remember when people questioned whether a black man could even lead a football team, let alone be the head of this nation. You know what I mean? And I think I think I think white men really do define leader as whiteness as, you know, like, that's something that white men when you think leadership, you think white. That's what I'm trying to articulate. And that to me, that was emblematic in something like the history of the NFL. Right? Where up until this year, the biggest game that's televised worldwide, and it is, because I was in France once with the Super Bowl. And there was always a white man leading, and now 2 black men are leading each both super the Super Bowl teams. And I think So here's the distinction that I would make around that. I think the motivations behind the exclusion are different in this way. I think when people say that about a quarterback, NASCAR driver, a ballerina, I think they're talking from the point of view of capability. I think they're saying a black person couldn't be a good quarterback or couldn't be a good NASCAR driver. I think capability and just not wanting them to. Because yeah. That's what I think capability and just not wanting them to. Maybe not wanting them to. I mean, it could be, like, I don't wanna see a black person as a quarterback. Because in the hill I just have never heard it expressed as I I'm just telling you the honest truth. I have never heard it expressed, and I take your point, like, maybe some somewhere in people's heads of the white people around me, maybe they have this, but I've just never, there's nothing in the culture that I've ever, that I've ever seen in my life that has said this, this is white identity. Like, this thing is attached to white identity. And so anyone doing this who is not white is disrespecting white identity. I'm not saying there's not people like that. There are white nationalists, neo nazis, white supremacists who clearly do that. But in the large the kind of broader spectrum of white people, I've just I've never I've never seen it defined that way. I've seen people again. I just I think we see examples of it every Christmas with white Santa Claus. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, I think that's that is fair. With white Jesus. I love you. I really do. But you've never been on the receiving end of the vitriol. And I and I mean, I when I don't say you, I don't mean let me your people. I mean, I'm not Christian, so I obviously don't, but I have heard that. You know? You are personally. Yes. I'm like, no. I'm like, this is Jesus. There are some people right now that will fight you tooth and nail if you say Jesus wasn't white. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. I know that. That's for that's for sure. Yeah. Christianity, I will agree with that. I will that is that is an example. Point taken. Point taken. That is absolutely an example. I guess I was thinking a little more in the terms of, like, dance and music and, you know, hairdos and you went deep with religion. I go deep. Our savior. I guess, David, what is more personal than a man that's gonna save you from burning in hell? He's it's gotta be a white man. For real. Because the because we have not arguments, but strong debates in my family about that, about not the racial heritage of Jesus, but the psychological imagery of that. Sure. Yes. Yes. I'm not advocating either one. I'm not so I'm not out here trying to stroke stoke Christians. That's between you and your god. But what I am telling you is that there's a certain psychological thing at play that a white man is gonna save you from internal damnation as long as you obey him. Uh-huh. Yeah. You feel or just the desire among white people to see that savior as white because yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. White love white women in football. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As a gay black man, that's what I pick up from the culture. Yeah. So, yeah, so perhaps another dimension is that there has been, and this this is something that that Jewish community can relate to a lot. So you talked about persecution, like being excluded because let's say of hair, like you've talked about all the things wrapped up and let's say cornrows, right? Exploitation, and so wearing Cornrows, having your hair in Cornrows is kind of opens up those wounds, triggers those wounds. Another portion of this is that there have been a lot of spaces that even if I feel like a lot of white people in my circles don't have things they attach to white identity, your point of at the very least, and again, Jesus and Santa Claus point taken Aside. Aside, your point at the very least that black people have been excluded from these split places for all sorts of racial biases, which I do wholeheartedly obviously agree with. I could understand, well, hey, well, hell, we've been excluded from so many places that supposedly were all these all-white spaces, like why can't we have some of our own, right? Why can't we have our cultural heritage that is kind of off limits? Now, I know that some people, not just in the white community or black community would say, but then we're just doing in reverse, right? Why are we gonna exclude people from being like us when they were excluding us from being like them, right? And so they'll bring up that point. I just wanna say the Jewish community and its history relates a lot to what you just said, right? Because they were left out of a lot of spaces, academic spaces, professional spaces, which is why they cultivated, finance and entertainment, right? These were spaces that were seen as lower spaces. Like the entertainment space was like the vaudeville genre. And it was like, these were all like where not refined whites go, right? Yeah. So it was left to Jews, right? And so they cultivated those spaces. But it's still hard for me to then understand why. I mean, I have a lot more understanding from this conversation. So there's still something inside of me that just wants to feel like we can just share and connect cultures. There is there's this, I don't think that's ever gonna go away from me, you know, because there's something to me that's beautiful about that, right? Like all your points about feeling upset about it taken, there's something about emulating one another that does feel meaningful to me. The fact that you, even if you wouldn't call yourself as an, yourself an authority on Chinese food, the fact that you love it and want to learn it, learn how to cook it better is a beautiful thing, Andre, right? Because it would be such a sorry state of affairs if you could only cook African American food or food from the African continent, right? And Chinese food, people can only cook Chinese food, right? That level of rigidity, of cultural kind of boundaries would be just so sad. I understand you don't wanna say you're an authority, but the fact that you wanna invest in it, that feels wonderful to me, which is where my motivation comes from. And chopsticks and everything. Absolutely. No. Totally. You know? That that that that that brings me joy, that kind of thing. So that's why that's my motivation in kind of pressing on this issue of sharing of cultural expression. It more comes from that that motivation. It's, and I yeah. I don't I think I have a lot more understanding of where you're coming from and where people would come from, it and its intention with this other motivation of, you know the same with Italians. Starry eyed Todd, just seeing a world where we're just all, you know, sharing culture. Chuckling because as, you know, I know men. And as you were talking, I just keep hearing do gooder white boy, do gooder white boy, do gooder white boy. And we need do gooder white boys all the time. Anything not be but is that beautiful in its putting aside the hurt, is there and the history, which I know is big and major, is there not something wonderful to you about that kind of sharing of culture if it could be achieved? So the answer is yes. So right. I first of all, I've been in a relationship with a Costa Rican man for 5 years now. We're getting married. We had to speak we had to learn each other's languages. When I when I met Guillermo, he spoke no English. And I had taken Spanish in high school, but I only remember one word, one verb, gustar. And I was just conjugating it incorrectly. And some kind of way, we hobbled together a date and hobbled together a relationship, and now we're creating a life. Right? Yeah. So and so I like, I was telling my mother, I say we are an Afro Latino family. What that means is rice and beans. I say we eat rice and beans a lot in my family. You know, with us know me, personally, I love rice and beans. So I'm really big on that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He likes the way I make beans, by the way. But I make them in a black way that uses a lot of spices. Because I made them for Christmas. I made the beans for Christmas. Yeah. And but to answer your question, it is a beautiful thing. I'm actively engaged in that now. Guillermo and I are from we speak different languages. We're for he's Latino. I am black, and in different cultures and everything. He's part of the Tico people. Tico is the name of the native people in Costa Rica. He's Tico. And I am African American, US, and all the different stuff. So it is a beautiful thing, but it's all done in my at least in my family and in my household with respect. So even our wedding. Right? When I asked him, I was like, are there any sort of traditional Costa Rican things that you wanna do in the wedding? He said, no. This would be a standard wedding or whatever, but it's always done under the guise of respect. And even he and I have had conversation about using the n word. And I'm like, first of all, you don't use that. I will never use that word in front of me. And you don't use that word because people outside of us in this bedroom don't know you like that. Yeah. And so the n word I can understand. Blackface I can understand because it was specifically ridicule. It was harder for me to understand the cornrows. I get it a lot more, like, where the hurt would be. But because I don't, I haven't perceived that or understood that to be some kind of ridiculing imagery in my mind, that one was harder because it felt like just something cultural that could easily be shared. And I again, this is taking all of your points. That's why that one was a little harder for me. May I share something with you, though Yeah. About your background? Not about your Jewishness, but about being from Southern California. Yeah. So because to me okay. So I'm not from Southern California. Yeah. And us in my part of the country, we've always seen whiteness to be part Southern California, especially when it comes to way of speaking. And you have to be like, well, I remember as a kid. I remember it was a big thing for girls to use the word like a lot. And they kept saying like this, like that, like. It was so annoying. And as I watched Bravo Television, and I see a lot of shows filmed in Southern California, and all of the women are skinny with blonde hair and whatnot, it just seems like there is a certain depiction of living in a certain style of speech that is associated with being white and being from Southern California. Did you ever feel any sort of expectation of fulfilling that, or do were you unwittingly fulfilling, you know, this image that the rest of the country has about being white and from Southern California? Yeah. No. I felt no connection to it. Well, I felt connection to a certain kind of ethos of living, which is laid back, even though I'm very, you know, type A and go, go, go and plan, plan, plan. That ethos of take life slow and drink it up is definite and I, you know, I wasn't a surfer, which that's very kind of a surfer culture. But it's interesting you say this. So I never felt an attachment or identity in that way. When I went to college, you know, people actually thought I was from the East Coast because I was, like, very direct. I didn't, you know, mince words, and I didn't, like, dance around things. You know, I would just say things the way it is, which I guess is the prototype of east, you know, in in our eastern culture in people's minds. But, what's his name? Dale Hughley? Is that did I get his name right? Dale Hughley. The community the comedian? So he was recently, you know, doing a guest spot or maybe still is on The Daily Show. We have rotating hosts now. They're trying to Yeah. They have Yeah. And he did something, where he went around and said like, what's the most black thing you've done? Or what's the most white thing you've done? And one of the people, actually, one of the black questions, you know, you know, people on the street said, you know, surfing was the most white thing I did. So, you know, I could I never knew that that was any, like, image of, like, what the white south Southern Californian was. Like, I didn't even know that. But hearing that, I was like, oh, do just black people just think, like, surfing is just like a white thing? I There's also been some problems, some tension there because as black people have gotten more into surfing, the surfer culture feels now infiltrated. And, like, there's sort of identity, I won't say is under attack, but it's being infiltrated by this sort of out people who traditionally have not been a part of it. Yeah. You see, the thing is that what that what that does for me is and this is again, some of the motivation behind my questions kind of in reverse around the corn roses, I would be arguing with those people, right? I would feel sad about those people trying to think that whatever they think the culture is that one that culture can't change in some way by new influences. And 2, the very least that that culture can't accept black people wanting to be part of it, right? It just that that kind of thing upsets me, the documentary on the Black ballerina and that this woman actually heard that you couldn't look like a ballerina because you have dark skin as if a ballerina could only look one like, could only look white. Just was eye opening. Those things are eye opening for me, and they just they so rub against my what I experienced in my world and what I aspire to in our world that that's really what the motivation is when I when I ask you these questions. So maybe I am that do gooder, you know, white boy. But you are. You are. Anyways, this was really enlightening, this part of the conversation. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingrayshow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingrayshow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now here's a scene from our next Healing Race. This is all to say that that I particularly feel a strong relationship to a story like a Harriet Tubman. Right? Because it connects me to my grandmother's story and to my grandmother's own courage. Right? I'm just bringing Would you trust a non-Jew to tell your grandmother's story? Like And I was about to say it. I guess I couldn't say. I was about to say if I made a movie of your grandparents' life, you would trust me with that. This is a broad friendship. Yeah. You know, like, I mean, because that's I didn't know I did not know that about your grandmother. Thank you for sharing it. It's incredibly apropos. And so my question is, like, would you trust someone who was not a direct beneficiary to, you know, to tell that story. Because as black people, we don't necessarily have that trust. And when have white people ever built work to build that trust with us where we could end it off to? So, no. I my heart is incredibly close to this concept. It really is. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.