Are Black Cops Part of A Policing Problem or Policing Solution?

I personally just feel as if we are breeding a culture and a society that does not want to be held accountable for anything. Mhmm. We glorify the wrong things. Mhmm. We will What does that mean, Marcus? Like, what can you share what, like, what do you have in mind when you say that? That we want to be softer on crime, that we will rally behind someone being locked up, and we will march and protest to free them. But yet we will demonize the person who has chosen to put their life on the line to serve and protect their community. And we look at that person as if they're wrong and evil, but the person who shot up a house and killed a little girl will say innocent till proven guilty and freeing. Mhmm. So I think that sends the complete wrong message. So in my 10 years in law enforcement, my experience has been that I am more, so I'm treated worse by my own people, by black people, than I am by white. And that's not to say that I haven't been mistreated by white people. Mhmm. But it is a blatant difference Mhmm. When I encounter a black person versus a white person, and it's hurtful. Because in a sense, to me and I get everything that is going on that you see on the news or different issues or incidents. But to me, it seems as if you would want to see someone who looks like you wearing the uniform and doing the job. And my experience has been more often that that's not the case, and I'm more so outcast from the community in a sense, accused of being an Uncle Tom or a sellout. And these are things people have said to you? Absolutely. Mhmm. Almost a daily occurrence. So Mhmm. It's I don't know. I don't know how to process it. I mean, I can I sympathize? I'm not even gonna say I can absolutely relate to that. Because I do think I mean, I mean, I mean, naturally, oh, wouldn't having more black cops alleviate, you know, some of some of this? Clearly not all of it based on what we saw this weekend, but some of it. How do I think that kinda gets to behind it, which is the whole attitude around policing that I actually think was lost in the in the dialogue over the weekend. You know, because we saw a lot of opinion pieces and, you know, commentators and things like that trying to talk about kind of still the white supremacy behind policing. And, unfortunately, people are like, well, this is 5 black cops. That means that's not a play. That's not necessarily true. You know, it’s kind of I hate to use this kind of analogy, but I think you'll kind of get it. It's the equivalent of how, like, there were some plantations where black slaves were put in authority over other black slaves. Mhmm. Right? So and they were to tell master when they like, something was going on. Right? And that's the equivalent of being like, well, that black slave was telling on another. That's not racism. It is. It's within, like, the confines of a very racist construct. And it's and it and I and I feel that, you know, unfortunately, there were so many thoughts stopping, it's 5 black cops, stop race baiting, everything, you know, everything of that sort where there wasn't a conversation that I think in general, there's an attitude. And, I mean, we can actually point to history, like American history, where policing very much, like, was initially rooted in keeping populations of certain groups in line. And I know, it's even come out recently. I've been spending time at the Chicago History Museum. So I've now lived here for so many years. And they're actually, like, archives of, like, you know, police records, you know, alderman records, etcetera, where they were, like, describing how to keep the growing black community because we were expanding beyond, like, during the great migration, during the civil rights movement, when black people were coming to Chicago, we were expanding beyond the borders where we were supposed to be cut. And it’s very stomach churning to read the way that we were being described as, like, growing like roaches across the city that needed to be checked. Yes. Yes. Rosie. Handwriting. Yes. In handwriting. And it was, like, get the cops in there to route, like, and get and so, like, there is, like, you know, a policing being used to enforce kind of still very white supremacist ideals no matter what the color of policemen are, that is not being discussed. So I think there was actually that one aspect. And number 2, miss Park is, like, it's like, honestly, like, with the exception of, like, a few black cops that I know, like, their family members, etcetera, that I have personal relationships with, like, unfortunately, I feel like boys in the hood is one of the first things that, like, comes to mind in the black community when it comes to black cops. Tell me, can you give a little background? I've seen the movie for this long. Yes. So there's the movie boys in the hood that was, like, late eighties, early nineties. That is about, you know, a group of young black men who were friends growing up in South Central, follows them from when they're, like, children all the way up. Very great, you know, Oscar nominated film. Recommend you see it. But when these young boys grow to be teenagers slash young men and they start having run ins with the law, think of just like the crack epidemic of the eighties and the battering rams that were going through, like, South Central and really heavily policing those areas, they have a really negative run-in with a black. And pretty much he treated them worse than the white cops who were there, and he hurled the equal racial slurs and everything of that sort, you know, and kind of did the whole, like, I'm trying to set you know, like, I'm a black man. Y'all are and I'll use slurs. Like, that sort of a thing. And it is a prominent scene in that movie, And, unfortunately, it's been kind of used to describe, like, this is what it means to be a black cop that I don't think escapes despite New York Undercover and all these other great shows that made black cops look great. Like, I'm a fan of Law-and-Order SVU. Go Ice T. Right? Aside from that, like, there's still kind of that scene that comes to mind when it comes to black cops, and I just don't think they've been able to kinda escape that. But how do we help the how do we help the Marcus's of the world feel more supported? That honestly broke my heart when he told me that. I was like, no one should feel outcast from their community or not feel whole or included. And that's number 1 of the reason I wanted to extend the thank you. And number 2, what does that support look like from us giving it to them? I mean, I would say in terms of us giving it to them, like, actual like you said, a thank you for what you do, a respect for, you know, what you do and what you willingly walk into each and every day. Every day. You know, the risk that you take just probably by walking around. I don't know if you wear a uniform or not, but, like, just, like, there's pretty much I know in our community that can be viewed as the equivalent of a target on your back rather than a sign of just respect. Here is a person who, you know, is a trustworthy, you know, advocate and protector of our community that we can turn to. I do think having conversations, you know, with our young people about their attitudes towards police. I mean, I can't say I mean, I remember my parents teaching me if anything, you know, bad happens or if you're scared or if you're lost, you know, go to a person in this uniform, they didn't stripe color, go to a person in this uniform, tell them your name, tell them your address, your phone number, and your parents' names. Right? It was kind of a they were teaching me that's a trustworthy person if you're lost. Do you can't start that anymore? I don't know. Probably not. Right. And so, some of them, I think it's just like that basic piece. And, Marcus, what do you need from us as a community? But first, let me say that, yes, I haven't I'm saying that I've been treated worse by black people, but that's not to speak on all black people. So it's not to say that I don't have any support from the black community because I do, I personally just feel as if we are breeding a culture and a society that does not want to be held accountable for anything. Mhmm. We glorify the wrong things. Mhmm. We will What does that mean, Marcus? Like, what can you share what like, what do you have in mind when you say that? That we want to be softer on crime, that we will rally behind someone being locked up, and we will march and protest to free them. But yet we will demonize the person who has chosen to put their life on the line to serve and protect their community. And we look at that person as if they're wrong and evil, but the person who shot up a house and killed a little girl will say innocent till proven guilty and freeing. Mhmm. So I think that sends the complete wrong message. So Mhmm. And I think in his comment about the narratives. Mhmm. Yeah. Especially juxtaposing narratives. Can I ask Marcus this probably is a sensitive question, but what is your initial reaction to Blue Lives Matter? I don't have a problem with it. For the simple fact that, personally, I think all lives matter. And that's not to say that black lives matter or that blue lives matter or only matter or don't matter or we're not focused on those lives. We're only thinking about these. But I think when you begin to proclaim one message. Yet if someone says something that differs and you completely negate what they're saying, then in a sense, you're ostracizing them. It's almost as if so, I know that the argument behind saying Black Lives Matter is to say, we're not saying that other lives don't. We're just focused on these lives and telling you that they do. Mhmm. Mhmm. So but even in doing so, it's as if you're dismissing the other lives in turn. Does that make sense? Not fully. Because I will say I was really surprised when people started having a negative reaction to the phrase. Like, we're not talking about movements or political beliefs or anything like that. Because and maybe I gave people too much credit. I thought they understood, like, that the 2 at the end is implied. Right? I kinda view it as the same way of if I were to say, like, red is a beautiful color. You're saying all the other colors are ugly? No. Like, it was just I need I need to say that. You know? And quite frankly, I wondered if some of the reaction was a little narcissistic of our world for, like and I say that about, like, not just black lives matter. Like, you can't say blonde is a gorgeous hair color without brunettes and redheads being up in arms. Like, everyone has this what about me attitude that sometimes it's like, it ain't about you. Like, right now, it is not about you. Right? Like, we just watched a black man get murdered on camera. Can it not be about you just for a minute? Right? But I just think, like, Arsenis. And so that's more so what it was. My and, honestly, my reaction to Blue Lives Matter isn't I mean, again, I don't have a negative reaction towards police or anything like that. But one core element that I think is missed in blue lives matter is that you chose to be blue. I didn't choose to be black. Like and I think there's a real difference in, like, you know, you signed up for a certain line of work. And not saying that because you signed up for that certain line of work, you deserve to be disrespected or anything like that at all. But when the initial intent of Black Lives Matter is just by nature of just who we are and the fact that we exist, you know, every sort we have value, that is very different from I chose this career path. I got you. So that's why you feel like it was an absolute response. What's the what's the importance of that difference to you, Mary? Because let me just yeah. Go ahead. Go answer the question. I don't know. It's just then I just don't think it's an apples-to-apples response. Okay. Right? Like, that's why I was I just kind of had such a reaction to it. It's just like, you chose to be blue. I did not choose to be black. Mhmm. To me, it seems like it's an inevitable response because we are engaged in a culture war. And if any group takes a highly antagonistic and that's what Black Lives Matter comes across as, not all of them, but some portion of them come across as highly antagonistic toward the police. And, therefore, other people are gonna feel that whether it's real or not. And they're gonna say, you know, they're gonna form the counterculture, group. It's gonna be blue lives matter, you know, and you're gonna feel that. You know? So I just think this is part of the society we live in now and how we label each other. Mhmm. Landon, how do you feel about Black Lives Matter being labeled a terrorist group by some people? Yeah. I think that that's just, a label that it's very simplistic. You know? Black Lives Matter is a large diverse group of people with varying experiences, many of them black, many of them not. Right? But overall, you know, they have some very healthy goals that they want to accomplish. And then, also, I think that they have some unhealthy aspects to their culture because they're a very tight group, and they really want to bring about change. Right? And they can therefore come across as very antagonistic toward policemen who maybe they don't appreciate the complexity of being a police officer, which is why I would hope that the two sides can, you know, help each other experience what it's like to be in their shoes. And I think that's the real that's my take on Mhmm. How we have to approach it. You know? Susan, was that a little bit of the kind of tension in your question around the protesting as well? It seems like you understand the goals, but then there's some sense of the tactics and how it affects other people. It seemed to be it seemed to be a common a common thread is like there's an ethos, and then some people, implement that ethos, you know, try to achieve those goals in in certain ways that maybe bring people together or, other approaches might antagonize or demonize. Mhmm. I don't know. I'm seeing It's more yeah. It seems like a more reactionary approach these days. You just have to everybody's just reacting and, you know, you see a video, or an imagery and you just react, and we're being bombarded with so much. We just tend to be in this reactive mode all the time, and I and it you know, just not like Landon and everybody was saying is just not conducive to nuanced conversations, which we have to have about stuff like this. I think Marilyn was hitting in that earlier. Blue lives matter doesn't sound terrible to me. In fact, it sounds like a reasonable reaction to cops getting just assassinated, just sitting in their car, just boom. You know? That was the, what was it? Dallas, Texas? Was it being it Texas when that happened? Where was it? Multiple places are. That I think What's that? In a variety of places, it happened? There was one in Texas I know that was a really horrible one. There was a the one in Texas that was horrible. It was like a sniper type Yeah. But there's been a number of in New York as well, Marin. Yeah. I don't know. Just personally reflecting, you know, I will admit I will say, you know, full disclosure, and I don't know if Black Lives Matter existed at time. It might not have. But I was on a pro in a New York protest after Eric Garner, and have been supportive of the ethos of Black Lives Matter, while not totally agreeing kind of to Landon's point with all of the tactics, because I took it as a 2 at the end, you know? Mhmm. Mhmm. I mean, listen, I had I had, you know, I had people in my family who I knew who did not feel supported, felt neglected, didn't feel heard. And I could have imagined them, and they might have at some point in their life gone to a family member, a parent and said, I matter, right? It's just like, I feel like it's a natural inclination when you don't feel heard, when you feel neglected, or even targeted in some negative way to just say I matter. I always I always took it as such. I always took it as okay. It's just a, it's a cry to say, listen. Our vi our lives are valuable too. Right? But, Todd, why can't we so I take this personally too. Yeah. You matter. So why as a society, we can't say back to that person, yes. You do. Yeah. I don't know. I don't I don't yes. I mean, I think that's a valid question. Right? Right? Why can't you just say you do? You do matter. Right? Rather than being kinda to Landon's point antagonistic and to go into the tribal to the tribal side. Okay. Well, if you're saying your matter, you matter, you know, well then, I matter too. Right? But the point isn't to say we all matter. Right? We do all matter. And I and I take your point, Marcus, like, all lives matter. I know very few people who would say they would just they disagree with that. Yeah. I say that. Unless they're a white supremacist or a anti semite or you know, or, or an anyways. But I also I also never, like, I understand that there were there are elements who do get to the point of being antagonistic to, toward and maybe hating cops. I understand that's out there. I've seen I've seen the reports. I've seen the incidents, but I also never took it as being a large population of the people who just support the ethos. I mean, I think just as just as Landon said, most people want diversity. I mean, I've always sometimes I wonder if we just live in in, like, a matrix world. Right? Mhmm. It's like we so to Landon's point, we just have all these narratives. Like, I think I might be wrong in this, Marcus. I, you know, I really might be wrong in this, and I know you've had the experiences you've had with people in your black community out casting you. And that's horrible. I mean, because I grew up in a Jewish community, you know, and I'm not, like, go Jew at this point. You know, I'm just like I don't probably like Landon. I didn't deconvert from Judaism, but I'm just like you know, we weren't the chosen people. Right? Type of thing. You know? Like, we're all human. But I know what it's like to grow up in a community of people who are who are similar. And so if I were outcast because of a of a of a decision that I made, I mean, I know that would feel horrible because it's my community. It's who I grew up with. So I wanna kind of validate I hear you on that. I think there's so many people who even would say black lives matter who value what you do, value the complexity of what you do. Like, I've never I told Andre a story during our conversation. I was I was, you know, robbed at knife point. So I've been in situations where I've needed police. In fact, the first thing we did is we walked up, you know, the stairs from the river, some friends of mine, and we hailed a policeman. You know? Right. So, like, I get what it's like to need police, and I just don't even know how I would deal with some of the situations you are in. And at the same time, what I also, you know, wonder about is, you know, in our conversation with you, you said, you understand racism exists. Right? Full stop. It exists. It's real. And I guess if it exists, my sense would be it exists everywhere, in every in every place in society, which would include law enforcement. Right? Like, I'm guessing there's some there's some strains of it, and it doesn't mean everybody Right. Right, is infected by it or is everyone is infected at the same level by it. But it I would imagine it has to be there in some in some places. And so I just imagine Don't forget that we're talking about a matter of degrees here. So racism and just, like, this sort of, like, this finite thing. We're talking because we're talking about, you know, degrees of manifestation. And I think and I think you would acknowledge that, you know, racism and those attitudes that have been constructed are pernicious, and they may manifest in lesser degrees. But one of the things I just say in the 1st season that the motivation is still there. And in in my opinion is if you still have the motivation, then you have the potential for the degree to grow. Yeah. It's interesting to me. I was thinking a lot of what along the same lines, Andre, because, you know, when I think of Black Lives Matter and Blue Lives Matter, I think of it sort. I guess I think more in the small little day to day things or even, like, I was loving so much of what you were saying, Landon, about narratives and like not really trusting narratives. It's more so like, you know, I'll use like here in Chicago as an example. I pay attention to things like when, you know, there are concerts in in Grant Park, a huge park in the middle of Chicago. It's where they have Lollapalooza and things like that. And the difference in reaction, by the city when it's mostly white suburban kids who come down to the concerts. And then, of course, they act out. They do what you know, they drink underage. They blah blah blah, whatever. And there's this whole, like, let them be kids. Don't ruin their lives. Blah blah blah. But then when it's, like, an artist that attracts a lot of black kids from the south side, and their underage kids are, show them off. Get them in jail. And that is when I'm just like, their lives matter too. You know? And that's a lot of times what I think of when I think of, you know, black lives matter. It's like, why is it the white kid who's caught underage drinking? It's let him go. He's being a stupid kid, blah blah blah blah. The black south side kid is, and it's call him off. You know? Put him in jail. Teach him a lesson. I bet his daddy ain't home and blah blah. And there's that sort of a thing that tends to that tends to go on. And then even when it comes to, like, unfortunately, some things that have happened with, like, you know, police versus civilian sort of a thing, you know, it's been very eye opening here in Chicago because there is the, if the cops said it, he was right. He's, like, you know, resort, and, like, the civilian is definitely lying. And then came out that that wasn't necessarily the case. And I'm like, what if it just it it's so I pay attention to more so, like, the attitudes and the way that it comes out more so. Like, we it's easily it's easy to say black lives matter, but it's pay attention when things like that happen in the news and, like, the black teen, you know, is arrested and everyone's, you know, pounding their first off, lock them up, that little criminal. You like, do you think they would have said the same thing if his name was Tucker, and he was from Lake Forest? But that's when I really pay attention to it. Yeah. It's a really strong point, Marin. And the narratives cut both ways, you know, and they cut in very unfair ways still. And I think that the overall, we have to try to treat people as individuals to the greatest degree possible and not, like, let the narratives about how dangerous young black men are. Right? Like, that that just totally labels them and simplifies them into a single word that is just ridiculous. You know? And you don't know their story. You don't know where they came to be, where they are. You don't know, like, what they need. You know? So, you know, I really dislike simplification of individuals by labeling them, And I and I hope that we can try to be aware of the narratives. They're so powerful, you know, that black men young black men are dangerous. Well, you know, there is a little bit of truth there because they have a higher crime rate in areas. Right? So what's behind that? But then the is that describe does that describe that individual? You know? Mhmm. It's a dramatic oversimplification, and I think it's bad for all of us. You know? And it propagates racism too. Yeah. It seems like, Marcus, you experienced I'm just thinking about your story and what you shared. You experienced the idea that out there, there is there can be racism. There can be this this kind of lack of grace. So here are all the ways you need to behave to ensure that you're being kind of a model citizen, in some way. And I guess I wonder if responsibility cuts both ways. I'm sure you would say the same thing to black males, black females, every individual for that matter, but you but, you know, in terms of your story, right, in your community, that there's responsibility to say, yes, racism exists and make sure that you're being kind of a responsible citizen. And on the other side, understanding, well, there's some responsibility on the part of law enforcement to understand some of the biases, some of the narratives as Landon said that exists and to make sure that that context of racism isn't something that black people have to live within. I mean, is there responsibility I guess both ways? Yeah. We have to correct You're not in your mind. We have to struggle within ourselves to correct our biases. Right? Yeah. So at least I'm criminal sides. I imagine. Yeah. I mean, is that your sense, Marcus? And do you see, you know, you don't always get to see just like you don't always get to see, let's say, a Black Lives Matter supporter, you know, say, of course, Blue Lives Matter. Of course, what you're doing is amazing for the community. Like, it was powerful, I feel like, for you to say what happened in Memphis was horrible, and there are other acts that have happened that are horrible. And some of them are, you know, there are acts that happen on an everyday basis. I'm assuming that might have some bias involved within law enforcement. You know? Not everybody, not all the time, but that it exists. And I guess, how do you how do you experience the tension of that as a black police officer? It is overwhelming. It's exhausting. I think that we as people, all of us, we have a tendency to overgeneralize populations. And back to what Marin was saying about I didn't choose to be black. I was born black. Yes. I chose to be a police officer. I think that is honorable. I think that is a great thing. If I walked out of the door wearing this today and I got killed in the streets by a cop for no reason, you would remember my name. But if I went to work tonight and I got shot and killed, would any of you remember my name in 2 months? Mhmm. You may remember it because you know me. But can you name any police officer in recent times that got killed? Can you name one of the Dallas 5 that got killed? I can't. The I can't recall the there was an officer that got shot and killed at a gas station walking in to get a snack. I don't remember his name, but I can recall all the names of people that have gotten killed by the police. Mhmm. So that's like a heavy burden. So, yes, I didn't choose to be black, And I don't have a problem with Black Lives Matter in that sense. Wrong is wrong. But at the same time, like I said, I think we have a tendency to glorify all the wrong things in life. Example. What's the matter with what we glorifying that's wrong? We glorify crime. We glorify wrongdoing. We I don't think people realize when they want criminal justice reform what all that entails. And so if your home got broken into in Harris County tonight, if you weren't home, I mean, your home got broken into and they stole all your stuff. It's a nonviolent crime. And that person, even if they're caught, they'll probably get out of jail on a PR bond, and they probably won't be convicted because I know these things. I've had a break in, and I know what a PR bond is. But I do. I take your point. So does that mean that your possessions weren't valuable because you weren't injured? And then we'll say, he didn't do it. Free him. Who is we? Who is we? Be specific. I'm overgeneralizing. I'm doing what we all do, overgeneralize. But people will say, free him. He didn't it was it he's just coming up. He's a good kid. Mhmm. It's a nonviolent crime. No one got hurt. So that's why I say we glorify the wrong things, and we give attention to the wrong things, and we demonize good things. So May I may I ask the question, though, or maybe there's maybe introduce a perspective that's a little bit different. While, yes, like cops absolutely getting pretty much assassinated for being cops is absolutely terrible. And we've had a couple situations here, in Chicago that, were very, very horrible situations. And to your point, I remember a few names, but not very many. However, do you think that a big reason why there is more emphasis placed on cops killing people because cops are paid to protect people. Like I haven't viewed it as more so that like a cop's life matters less than this person's life. I viewed it as more of a you literally had a cop who went into a community that he is supposed to protect and ended up murdering a civilian in that area. Like, like, is does that change things? No. Absolutely. I agree with you. It absolutely does because it shouldn't happen if it's unwarranted. It shouldn't. The sad reality is that at times, it does. And that's horrible. So I agree with you. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next healing race. Just speaking from a police officer's perspective, I still worry about how it's going to be perceived or received. What will the comments be? Will it be that I'm being dismissive or I'm not black enough when in actuality, I'm just trying to be genuine and speak my own truth and speak on the experiences that I've had. So and I think Mary hit the nail on the head when she said we've never really escaped the boys in the hood. Correct? Mhmm. Yes. And boys in the hood, that's the idea that you get when you see a black police officer. And so it's like, that's not the case. The vast majority of police officers go to work every day to do a good thing. I don't I don't know any police officers that go to work wanting to kill someone or to do harm or misconduct. Like, that's career suicide. You're setting your sim your family up for ruins. Who wants to go to work and do something, and then you get sued, and all your finances are tied up in litigation. Your life is ruined. What are you gonna do when you lose your job? What another career are you going to? Everyone's gonna know who you are. So it's just I don't know. I think, in general, we overgeneralize. I think we clump people up, and that could be races, professions, whatever the case may be. And I think we tend to focus on our differences more so than our similarities, and that's where the downfall lies that we're we have more incompetent than we have that's different. And if we focus on those things, I think the world would be a much better place. So Mhmm. Mhmm. Preach, mister Marcus. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.