Do Black Americans Overplay The Racism That Exists Today?

You see that today in politics. Look at the divisiveness between the Republican and Democratic party. Mhmm. Mhmm. Like, you're taught that the other side hates the country, and everything's going to hell in a handbasket. It's like, we're all Americans, and why can't we meet in the middle and find common ground? So right. Mhmm. Why does it have to be that you don't love the country as much as I do just because you have a different belief on how something should go? So I ask these questions to kinda set us up for, the next portion, and this is one that I really wanna direct with Marcus because it's a tension that he and I have personally together, and I openly acknowledge it on the show. And it's one that I need to explore because I just don't know the answer. And I'm almost gonna literally read the question off the show notes because is the historical messaging about race, Marcus and everyone in the group, that we've received, is that still relevant? Because I feel personally that I hold on to a little bit of what's in the past and maybe things that have been sort of I've Marin's experience since that's the experience that's leading us into this next, sort of, topic of conversation. So I hold on to the mayor's experiences and have this sort of beware, beware, beware signal in my mind. But then when you hear a Susan and a Landon talk, and it all sounds so good and gravy right now on the phone, you know, it makes me ask myself, number 1, is this just placation by Susan and Landon? Yeah. I'm gonna be specific. And then number 2 That's fair. And is it am I holding on to something I just need to let go of at times of change? Marcus, I really wanna know what you think about that. Are you saying Marin's, situation? Experience is valid, but maybe we need to let maybe times have changed, and maybe we need to kinda let it go. Or is it still happening in another is it manifesting itself differently, but the motivation is insane in present day? I don't think that it's completely removed or eradicated from society. I think it definitely still happens. You can't say that it doesn't. But I do think that there comes a point in time unless you yourself are personally experiencing it, or if you have, then I don't think we should be so quick to cry foul, if that makes sense. That makes sense. Assume people's motivations that they come from some kind of racist motivation or intention or bias. Correct. But just approach the situation human to human without the topic of race coming up unless it unless it does. Correct. So how do you so I guess to kind of bolster Andre's question, I guess, do you think there's still that there's the historical messaging about what to prepare for, kinda out in the world as a black American? Do you think you say it still exists. Do you think that's still relevant today even if on a on a person by person, incident by incident, or event, you know, experience by experience, maybe you don't you don't go to that place of thinking about race. But do you think the messaging is still important around its existence and preparation around that? What's your what's your sense about it's the relevance of history in today's world? Mhmm. Absolute. Go ahead. No. No. No. Please go ahead. I'm No. Please go ahead. Because I'm still thinking about the way I'm answering it. So go pledge, please. Absolutely. I think the messaging is still relevant. I think it has somewhat evolved over time. But, yes, it's still relevant. Those conversations between children and black parents still need to be had. But I think we should tweak the approach in an essence because things are not exactly the same way that they used to be. What would you how would you take balancing act. Go ahead, Todd. Sorry. Sorry. I was just gonna say how would you how would you how would you tweak it? Like, how would you message it? And you asked a question that stuck with me, or you made it was a question, kind of a comment question in the in the first episode that kinda relates. So if I could just throw a couple at you. You said when is enough? Right? Which I felt like you were talking about in multiple parts of the race conversation, a little bit about the economic disadvantage, but just the general, like, when is enough talking and focusing on race? And I guess, 1, how would you message now? And 2, when is enough to you? Like, when what is that place are we at the place already? How do you define when enough is enough and we need to put the past aside or behind as it relates to race? How do you how do you, you know, think about that? I, honestly, I do not have the answer to that. What's your sense, your intuition? Or It's something that I've thought about, but I would even thinking of race and thinking of, say, police relations. I think it's a twofold approach. I think on one hand, the society or community wants police to be a certain way, but at the same time, you're coming at police with aggression. So it's almost as Martin Luther King said, hate can't drive out hate. So it's a twofold approach. Everyone needs understanding. We all need to come to terms with where we are, and we need to work together. I don't know the answer on how exactly that would go. Mhmm. But it can't be a one-sided approach. Does that make sense? Does that make sense, Mary? It does. I guess the best way I could I can think of approaching it nowadays is having conversations by assuming positive intent, but still addressing impact. I think for the most part where society has changed is that a lot of a lot of the malice that you know we would see if you thought of when you watch, I'm just, you know, movies like Mississippi burning, right? Like you like a lot of that malice is gone. However, that does not mean that there are not well-intentioned actions that have negative impact. And so when I try to have conversations, whether it's with clients or with other people who say or do things that have a negative impact on me or those, I mean, I focus on talking about the impact and not making assumptions about intent. Like, I'm not gonna get into you meant to do that. You meant to the or you were, you know, you were being racist, or you know you were being bigoted. It might not be the case, but it's sometimes just making them aware. Hey, here's the impact of that action, that attitude, that behavior on someone else. Now you can do that, but you won't. Okay? Like, you can sit there and say, forget that everyone's too sensitive. I'm gonna keep doing my thing. But I can at least say on my part, you're not gonna be around me and walk around ill and forward. This happened recently at work, and we were just talking about the role of diversity, equity and inclusion and like products and services and things like that that my clients provide. And someone was pretty much doing what is enough? Like, what is the big deal on this? Like a good product is a good product, like, you know, race or whatever, like, does it matter? And it just so happened. I was working from home and in my in the background, oftentimes I just have the TV on mindlessly. And it in the background was an old King of Queens episode. And it was when, Kevin James' character, he was with Deacon, his best friend, who's black, and it was Halloween a Halloween themed episode. And the whole theme episode is that Deacon's son wanted to be a superhero, but there were no black superheroes. So he was trying to find a way to, like, get his son interested in a different costume because there aren't black superheroes. And I said, this is what I'm talking about. I was like, look at 25 years later what we can point to that we could not point to. We now have Black Panther. We now have, like, you know, doing things that when I was like, do have you thought about what that was like for a child? You know? I remember I wanted to be a Wonder Woman. My mom was like, scanty clad white woman for Halloween, you will not be. Like, that was she was like that. No. Right? What are those? The bagels. The bagels. Right. So, but again, like those are simple little, of course, like childhood experiences that can be very defining because it makes a child feel different and feel othered and, like, why aren't there, like, black superheroes and things like that? I said, and that's the reason why it matters. I mean, it's clearly matters to the tunes of $1,000,000,000 for Marvel. So it also matters, like, in the market. When you when you have these teaching moments with people to say, hey. Point out something. This is why it might be this way. Do people react negatively or accepting, or does it run the gamut? Say for the most part, people react positively. Because for the most part, a lot of people didn't know. And, again, like, I think they're reacting more so to let me be aware of the impact because I never ever have a discussion around intent with people. That is when people will get defensive and you, like, get ready to go to battle. But I think for the most and I also share it from a place of empathy in terms of, you know, hey. I catch myself calling it the master bedroom. You know, so I catch myself saying some of these phrases all the time. Right? And I was like, I'm still working on it. You know, I had to be taught. Just wanted to make you aware of the same thing. Master bedroom. Yeah. Gosh. I still use that term. Okay. Yeah. There's time for moment for me right now. Literally came from the master's bedroom. I'm yeah. I think you're I never even thought about that either. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. It does. Because I just got, I just did a major remodel of my house, and that's what it was referred to by everybody through the whole process was that. They're trying to say primary bedroom now, and still I try to Thank you. I still try to fix it, and I'll still catch it every now and then. But yeah. Thanks. I yeah. I noticed the similarity between Erin and Marcus in terms of not focus not assuming intent, of a person. And, you know, just thinking back at your history, like, your backgrounds and, you know, Erin, you, you know, you've kind of explained to us how you were basically in a place that was mostly white. And so you're, you know, you were put in a place where you had to interact and socialize with white people if you were gonna have any kind of social life, right? And Marcus, I don't, you shared a little bit about your background, but it sounds like a pretty integrated background as well. Do you think, I guess, how do you think those parts of your background have influenced the way that you think about race, racism as it exists or doesn't exist in your mind, and just, yeah, just how you engage with the with these topics. Do you think it's had an effect, and how so? I do. Since our last conversation, I left, and I was like, I don't think I really articulated anything about my background, honestly. Yeah. And so I sat, and I thought about it. And, honestly, when I look back at my childhood, I think I was sheltered. I think I was very fortunate and blessed to have parents. Like, my mom did not play. I was never allowed to spend the night at my friend's houses. My mom and dad ran a tight ship. And so now looking back on it and all the people that I wanted to hang with, it's and in essence, I was kinda sheltered from that, and I just didn't get a chance to explore, take part in that. And so I feel very blessed in that essence. As far as just dealing with racism, like, I didn't. It was a diverse background. I went to school. My school was probably 70 75 percent white. Mhmm. And but that's still a high percentage. So that's still a high percentage. Of what? Of the black population? What do you mean? He said my school was 75% white. That means Yeah. You know, 3 out of 4 people were white. Yeah. So it's not necessarily completely on par with Marion, but it's kind of in that direction. Different than your different than your background, Andre, it sounds like. Well and also it reminds me of Landon's. And I'm sorry, Marcus, to cut you off. Please, Richard. Good. It reminds me of Landon's background. And I only, say something because, you know, I feel like we're talking about our separate backgrounds. Right? But there's so to quote Marcus, when we said we have more similarities than different. You know, Marcus, you just shared that your parents ran a tight ship in some ways. Maybe you were sheltered. Sounds like, Landon, that was some of those themes in your childhood as well. And so it makes me it brings me back to the word history. Right? Because you're recounting your personal histories. And so when you have these personal histories with more similarities than differences, why well, how can I say this? It, you know, how can I say this? The is their value in focusing on those personal histories and rolling that up to raise those racial histories so much? I think there absolutely is value, but I don't think that value. What's that value? I think the value is that we do share commonalities, and we are more alike than we are different. But culturally and based on historical things that have happened, we just don't focus on similarities. We focus on the differences. That's what occurs naturally. And so you have I just think you have to be willing to change your mind set in a sense. Does that make sense? Yes. What mindset what's the mindset shift? Different is bad. I couldn't hear you, Mary. I said, or even just not viewing different as bad. Like, different is just different. I think a lot of times people think Yeah. Even if I call out that my experience is different, I'm not saying my experience or wanna go through is better or worse. I'm just saying it's different. And I think people kind of get caught up in this, you know, assigning value to difference when, you know, it is just kind of what it is. Absolutely. You see that today in politics. Look at the divisiveness between the Republican and Democratic party. Mhmm. Mhmm. Like, you're taught that the other side hates the country, and everything's going to hell in a handbasket. It's like, we're all Americans, and why can't we meet in the middle and find common ground? So right. Mhmm. Why does it have to be that you don't love the country as much as I do just because you have a different belief on how something should go? And for those of you who are conservative leaning on the call, is that why do you feel that that you, you know, concentrating that concentrating on difference just being and not being bad or good, which is being different is a struggle sometimes for conservatives. Like, conservatives seem to wanna highlight it. I'm not saying that liberals don't. Liberals will highlight it. But, you know, it's like as though if you talk about, for example, the uniqueness of black history and with, you know, what Marin and Marcus have shared and I've shared, that that breeds an air of defensiveness. And so I have to wonder with the you know, we have more in common than we are different. Why, do some people, especially some that are conservative leaning, feel uncomfortable with that? I think that's a great question, Andre. And, you know, like, the conservative mindset is, you know, steeped in the American civic religion, I would say. The kind of what I've been talking about is my historical interpretation is that, you know, this was handed down by God, and they were these were great, and outstanding people who made amazing advances in in setting up democracy, and that got the ball rolling on this American project. Right? That is a conservative mindset, and it it's hard to deal with the cognitive the dissonance that happens when you realize how those people were sometimes terrible people. And, they may have been your heroes growing up. You know? And then, you know so terrible people can do, amazing things too. And amazing you know, good people can do, you know, some pretty bad things too. It's much more messy and complicated than I think a lot of us learned, especially if you grew up in conservative areas. You know? So that can breed a little bit of, discomfort a little bit. You wanna lash back and defend it immediately, you know, without really thinking about it. So, Susan, I see you nodding in in awareness. Does this strike a chord with your experience? Yeah. And I don't consider myself conservative. I consider myself like a moderate at this point, I'm a moderate libertarian. So there's and in the libertarian and also conservative thought, there's, an emphasis on individualism and, you know, individual responsibility. And so if your situation is bad, you need to take care of it. Work hard, you know, buckle down, make things better for yourself. So I think that that comes from more of the conservative side. Landon, you talked about it's hard to when you learn a certain vision of history, in in in particular in conservative areas, to feel proud of, and it's hard to integrate information that might, you know, complicate that as you've said previously. Right? I'm struck by and it kinda relates also to something Marcus said earlier in this conversation. In in the first conversation, you said it's a natural impulse on the part of law enforcement when you're criticized, right, for police shootings. It's a natural response when you experience antagonism to close ranks and wanna say blue lives matter, for instance, that was the conversation we were having. And I know for obvious and valid reasons, Marcus, you also feel that, right? How do we criticize without being antagonistic? Like how do we complicate our vision of something that we see value in, whether it's the history, as you talk about Atlanta or law enforcement and its function, Marcus, you experience it, but they're imperfect as was just, you know, described. And if we can't criticize, we can never improve. But sometimes criticism is taken as antagonism, and sometimes it is genuinely antagonism and hate to put toward, you know, but what I guess, what is the way for us to be able to question and criticize and improve without, but do it together, right? Without this kind of mutual antagonism? I don't know if you, what are your thoughts on that? Are we too quick to defensiveness or are we too quick to harshly criticize? I'm just interested because you're both uniting, you have, you know, everyone on this call has uniting kind of ethos, right? But, you know, sometimes uniting is just keep the peace without rocking the boat, and sometimes the boat is rickety in some way. What is your what are your thoughts on that? Gotcha. I keep going back to this whole twofold approach idea. So when I say the problem that I have with the antagonizing more the criticism is more so the personal experiences and the blatant confrontation that comes from it. It's like every person you encounter or majority of people, it's like it could literally be a traffic stop that your tags are expired. And the moment you walk up to the car, you're hit with confrontation right off the bat. And it's like, why does it even have to go there? But, again, I don't have the answer to that because even when it's peaceful and, say, the NFL takes a knee during the national anthem, that's the most peaceful criticism that there can be, but yet there was a problem with it. And then it turned into you hate this country, and that's disrespectful to the flag and the constitution. So I don't know. Personally, I didn't have a problem with it. I thought that it was a great way to bring awareness to it, but some of my counterparts thought that it was just the most egregious thing in the world. And so I'll just say I love America. I love this country. I have the constitution hanging up in my office. But on one hand, you want black America to love America wholeheartedly and to love this document called the constitution that, but we weren't even counted as whole people Mhmm. Historically. So I don't know. Like, what is a peaceful criticism? What is nonconfrontational? Because someone's always gonna have a problem with it. So I don't have the answer to that. Mhmm. But that would be an aspiration for you is to get to the point where that criticism can happen. Yes. But I think and then it enters into a conversation about it. Sorry about that. Takes each person individualistically to be able to reach that point mindset wise to even reach that commonality. So I don't know. So I am interested in in piggybacking off of your statement, Marcus, with something just very relevant given that, you know, we just had the Super Bowl happen yesterday. And, you know, I know what you're saying. You're saying the talk about it. And the black national anthem being sung by Shirley Ralph. I I'm really interested, especially from, like, Susan and Landon, your thoughts on first of all, if you knew anything about the Black National Anthem, because I can say in the Black church, I mean, I grew up having to learn all the verses. We, you know, we sang it like all the time, not just during Black History Month. And also, I had to learn the history of it, that it was a poem written to Abraham Lincoln after the Civil War. So, like, it definitely, in a lot of ways, is extremely patriotic, but it seems to be being received in a poor manner. And I don't know if it's because people don't know the story behind it or people really think black people sing it instead of the national anthem, which I've never ever, ever, ever had happened. Just I'm just interested in kind of I don't understand the victory all around it. It's so funny because I have that on my list of topics here. I wrote down lift every voice and sing as something to talk about. I think it's an amazingly beautiful song that I didn't know anything about until a few years ago, and I've got no problem with it being sung. It's just it's beautiful. The words are beautiful. The music is beautiful. And she did a great job singing it yesterday. Maybe the vitriol comes from the fact that it's called the black national anthem. So may I think that might be where the rub is, because it's an anthem for sure. But is it does that does that imply when people call it that, does it imply we are 2 separate people, 2 separate cultures and nations? And maybe that's where the rub is. Yeah. I don't have any problem with it. Call that. And, sure, do the star-spangled banner as well. I mean, that you know? Yeah. I mean, it I know it initially was just called the hymn, Lift Every Voice to Sing. It was adopted as the black national anthem in, like, the 19 twenties or whatever. So the song is and then yesterday, one of the one of the reasons it was sung is it was, like, the 100 and 23rd or 24th anniversary of the song. So it's been around a really, really long time. Yeah. And it was the first time 2 black quarterbacks ever started the Super Bowl. Yes. Yes. That's also why it was wasn't important. And there was a black female coach on the Philadelphia Eagles outside lines as well. So there is a lot of symbolism behind it being sung. I think also even understanding, you know, especially in the years that it was it was first adopted as the anthem, the lyrics rang more true to the black experience than the national anthem, in of itself. I mean, if you think of it being sung in the twenties, thirties, forties, and fifties when black people couldn't even vote. Right? But now it also just being a Christian, like, kinda similar to you, Susan, you know, aside from being forced to memorize it. When I do stop and think about the lyrics, it is a beautiful song in terms of, you know, how far we have come in it really representing a big part of the African American struggle. It's a hopeful song. It it's a hopeful, you know, about the future. And that's what I that's what's so beautiful about it, knowing when it was written and there was so much more horrible stuff to go through yet, and yet there was still hope. That's I just got goo I mean, it's just goosebumps. It's great. But what makes the subject feel threatened by that? Yeah. Yeah. Calling it the black calling it the national anthem. That's the brand new black national anthem? Yeah. So I saw an article. I think it was a news station out of Alabama, and I just saw the headline of the article. But it said something to the effect of raise every voice in seeing the so called national black anthem saying at the Super Bowl. I was like, woah. So yeah. Well, it's definitely that definitely is like I think that that implies that this it implies that you're saying when you call it that, I think they're saying it implies that the star-spangled banner is not your is, you know, you're not really identifying as American. That's not your anthem. You're defining as black and not American. I don't I'm just that's not what I feel. No. I got you. I'm being a I'm trying to get into the mindset. But I think if people actually instead of just focusing on the headline as we often do with most things and actually paid attention to the words, the lyrics are not divisive at all. It's literally about making progress and being a whole nation and everyone being equal when we've come so far. Yeah. That's not right. That's about what our dark past has taught us. It's not meaningful to the stars and the last mind is to our God, to our native land. I mean, it's yeah. Landon, you had some thoughts too? What were you wanting to share or ask? No. I really don't know much about it, honestly. I mean, I will say that I'm guessing because I, you know, I've I am from conservative circles, and I'm guessing that, you know, it's an interpretation of exclusion of the it's basically like Susan said. I'm guessing everybody interprets the name as exclusion of the other national anthem. So yeah. And I guarantee that 95% of people have not actually read it to criticize it. So and know that those headlines that you see and those that negativity is such a minority, that they're they just, you know, they want us to hate each other, so they hype up the worst part of each side. And that that to me, that's the worst the worst attitude about that. I think there is a general thing that it points to, though, which is a broader question of kind of uniquely a unique black experience and uniquely black spaces or contributions. Right? Because, I mean, listen, I, in my history, relate a lot because my grandparents on one side were holocaust survivors. Right? And I know that deep persecution of that on that level breeds a certain kind of strength of identity and need to connect and express oneself as a group. Right? And so Even more than that, that's how you gain rights. Like, if we like, if those people include, including Jewish people, didn't organize around that principle that you just pointed out, then it makes the, you know, helping the collective that much more difficult. So it almost seems natural to do that. Yeah. And I just I mean, I know, Marcus, one thing you brought up not during the past conversation, but in our individual conversation was H, right? And this kind of desire or need or, you know, need just because there weren't other opportunities to create spaces. The Jews did the same thing, right? You know, there's always this question of why is there so many Jews in law or finance or entertainment. It's because those were the spaces where they could actually work. Right. And so when you're excluded and or to the next level of persecuted, there is a natural inclination to want to have your space. You know? And I guess I feel like this gets a little bit even to the heart of, Lynn, in your question of when is the past the past and can we move forward? I guess, what is a way forward where you could, you know, express something as part of your identity that might not be American? It is American, but there's also a unique part of it. Right? It's black or it's Jewish or it's female, you know, Susan, as you've brought up. Right? It's some part of your identity, but at the same time, do it in a way that isn't that doesn't feel threatening to the broader uniting identity. Right? Can you sing a black national anthem and still be patriotic and call it a black national anthem? Right? Right. And is there, you know, you know, you asked you asked this question at some point in our one zero one landing of a unique black history because you brought up the persecution of the Mormons. Right? And I've brought up the persecution of the Jews, which happened in Europe. Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen here in the states, but, you know, we weren't killed here in the states. Right? But, you know, a few you know, of course, incidents, hate crimes. But on mass and organized. On mass and organized. Right? And so, I guess, how do you Landon, how do you process this idea of a united America, but at the same time, I need to express uniquely? And do you think there is a unique history that needs to be considered, different from, you know, other persecution stories that that might help us relate to the black experience in some way? Right? What is your sense of that? Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. As a as a person who grew up with that kind of history that I had, you know, I look back and I don't think that very few people could have imagined that there is such a thing as an economy without slave labor at that point in time in history. I don't even think that that frosted the majority of people's minds, that that was a possibility. Just like women, were inferior, just on just because of their biology, that was just written how's how God made it, you know. I think that these kinds of things, these ideas have, have not passed through the brains of 95% of people back in those time periods. And so, you know, that's a condemnation of the nation, but it's also a condemnation of humanity as a whole that those kinds of narratives existed, and they existed for a multitude of reasons. Some of them pretty malicious, I would say. You know, it's about power in a lot of ways. Right? So, so when I look back on, you know, the founding fathers of the United States, I see that, they did some pretty intellectually adept things that were, cutting edge for their time. But they also were just run of the mill bigots that did not have the imagination to imagine it in other ways in in many ways. Right? So they could not imagine. But I'm sorry, Landon. I'm sorry. Because in my opinion, you're giving those founding fathers too much grace. So well, I'm trying to try to make the case. Yeah. You were. And you're making it eloquent. You're making it you're making the case in an eloquent manner. Mhmm. But to quote Ruth Susan to quote Ruth Susan. So these founding fathers could remember. They could envision their own freedom from the crown but couldn't envision our freedom from them. So we gonna live our lives worried about it and rejoicing in white folks' freedom on the 4th of the MF July, and it never occurred to them that we would want the same thing. I just find that incredulous. Absolutely. I agree with you. I mean and then that that idea right there that you just said is makes a lot of sense and how you feel about our nation, right? They never even crossed their minds that you also would want that same freedom. They didn't consider you to be, black people to be a full person. Right? So that was not that was not even in their, they couldn't even imagine it. That's what I'm saying. Right? And I'm not giving I'm not saying that that's okay. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.