What is the White & Black Responsibility for Healing Racial Divides?

Thank you for tuning in to Healing Race. In this video, Todd and I ask ourselves, what is the white responsibility in overcoming racial conflict, prejudice, and inequities? And what is the black responsibility? And who's responsible to lead that process? I also ask Andre what led him to lower the walls that guard his heart in conversations with white people, even amid the caution that he brings to white relationships. And I also ask him about the kindnesses he's been shown by white people, and the impact they have had on how he interacts with the white community. So let's get to that conversation now. Enjoy. I also wanna make a very deliberate point, and maybe this is controversial, but I'm gonna say it anyway, to say that's a distinctly white problem. What I mean by that what I what I mean by that is that the revelation of dealing with your prejudice, and I'm speaking well, prejudice in general, but I'm speaking as a black person, prejudice with black people. It's not it's not for how can I say this? It's not for the black person to get over their stuff because our stuff is in response to yours with respect to the power dynamics in this country, institutional power dynamics in this country. That's what I will say. But I believe when that revelation does happen en masse, then that's when you'll see a huge emotional shift and maybe even a true, like, change in zeitgeist with respect to race in the country, but that it the leadership of that is a white responsibility. It's not like once I heard someone say, you know, it's not it's not enough that we have I mean, we bear the brunt of racism, then we have to turn around and help white people work through their emotions to cure it. That's that sort of like, you abuse me, now let me help my abuser work through why he's abusing me in the first place. That is not our responsibility. So part of that part of that taking that opportunity when life presents itself is to own that the way you were thinking before the opportunity came into your life was less than ideal. Yeah. And I said that I have two thoughts about that. 1, kind of in support and one kind of a devil's advocate, not even a devil's advocate, but a counterpoint. One thing that I would say is, yeah, in my, I think in our last conversation, recorded conversation, I did come to that kind of epiphany because you had asked about the white responsibility. And I said, I do actually in addition is that I think there is a white responsibility to initiate this process. Remember the kind of jumping into the jumping into the swimming pool. Right? And we'd all love to jump in together, but maybe in most cases, jumping into the swimming pool that that white people should take the responsibility to jump in first. Mhmm. And what I would say is in terms of responsibility is it doesn't leave the black person off the hook Because if that black person never jumps in the pool, you never get anywhere. And I take that point. I take that point. I just didn't I just I wanna dispel the expectation that we should be the leaders of getting we should be the leaders of giving over our own mistreatment. Like, you all need to you created this crap when you brought us here. Fix it. Yeah. I mean, from a moral point of view see, I see it less from a moral point of view than a than a than a practical point of view. Mhmm. Might be the way you have to say it. Here's the reason why. I think what a reaction to what you said would be is, yes, I'm a white person. Let's see, let's even give this person some credit. They're not like, you know, Neo Nazi, right? Let's say they're a white person who acknowledges that there are inequalities between races that are based on some historical trajectory. Okay. Let's just put it there. Right? Who themselves though might say, but that's a historical trajectory and I wasn't part of that history, right, the implication thing. I'm not necessarily implicated in that history, right? I live in the here and now. And let's give them their dues about that. Let's give them credit, okay? Let's just assume for a moment that, okay, you know, maybe you carry around biases, but maybe you do, you know, carry yourself in such a way that minimizes prejudice, minimizes bias. Let's give them that. They might say, I don't necessarily have a moral responsibility because I don't feel a tie to those people historically, but I understand what has led to the conditions that we have as our reality right now, and I understand the reasons why there would be more mistrust and hesitancy on the part of black people to enter into these vulnerable conversations. And from a practical point of view, for the best interest of all, I think that white should take that greater responsibility because they're not carrying that with them in the same way. I'm not saying that white people don't have anxieties, I mean, clearly, they do, or baggage that they bring into conversations. I mean, clearly, they do. So I understand I understand I think there's a moral imperative from the point of view of because of the world that we live in in this moment and the barriers to conversation in our culture that exists for, you know, broadly on average for black people, and because I don't have those same kinds of or equivalent set of barriers to conversation, it should be the my even I would say maybe it's not just practical, moral responsibility, but it's I would just say, I guess my difference with you is it's not because I'm connected to that history, but it's because I live in the conditions of an environment right now where because of that history, I have a greater, I don't even wanna say capacity because black people have capacity to have these conversations and initiate them, but they just don't have that historical trajectory that might create barriers to that. At least that's what I gathered from our last conversation. So I agree with you maybe for slightly different reasons that there is a greater responsibility. Now that being said, here's what I would say. You know, there is, so example. There was a white supremacist, what, actually, like, the son of, like, someone who was part of leadership in the, you know, David Duke whatever it was, people called it, you know, the group is named, but like there was like a group, I forget what the group's name is. He Who's this one? Well, it was David Duke, someone who was really close with David Duke, his son, who grew up in a white supremacist environment. This is like a broadcasted story, you can look it up, a story that's been told. He, as the son, was socialized into this and believed in white supremacist views and played a big role. He developed a site, I forget what the site is, it's like a very heavily frequented white supremacist site. If it comes to me, I'll mention it, but, and still used to this day. Mhmm. He when he when it was time for him to go to college, he decided he wanted to go to a liberal arts college. He thought it would be the best way to foster and support his growing kind of intellectual development. Now, of course, those places tend to be highly liberal. Right? And full of minorities. And so he was there, and I don't know if it's his 1st year or his 2nd year, but he got outed as a white supremacist because he still he kept it quiet. It's not like he broadcasted to college, but he would still oh, Storm Sight. It's some something storm is part of it is part of the name. But, anyways, he would, go to, like, conferences or give talks or you know, so he was still involved, but on the side and in hiding. Yes. But we live in the world that we do now, and you can't keep that stuff hidden for long. And someone found out, saw some picture of some event that happened, and he was there and outed him to the whole college. And you can imagine the uproar that happened. There was a Jewish student who reached out to him and invited him over For Shabbat. And started inviting him over time. And that, through a series of experiences, led to his complete transformation and his leaving. There's Daryl Davis, the musician, who, who I actually interviewed last year or earlier this year. And, you know, he tells the story of how he lived in different places because of, I be they believe it was because of the military, because of his, I think, father, or anyways, whatever his father's position or his mom's position or one of their positions led them to live abroad. And then he came back to the states. When they came back, he had an experience of being in the boy scouts, and all of a sudden was people were throwing rocks at him. And he had no idea what was happening. He just hadn't experienced racism. And, you know, his, you know, boy scout brothers or whatever they call themselves were protecting him and taking him away, and he was trying to grapple with what in the hell was going on. And, you know, he told his mom, and his mom had to have a, you know, a conversation about racism with him. And he's like, what? You're telling me, like, white people believe this? And his question that came out of it was, how can someone hate me without ever knowing me? That was his question, his life question. And so what did that lead him to do? That led him to start contacting white Ku Klux Klan members to have pure, respectful curiosity conversations with them. And he had his work in having those conversations has led to I don't even wanna know what the numbers are of people who have left Ku Klux Klan and or just white supremacist movement. Government organization. So I this is all to say that while I accept your idea that there is a greater responsibility, even practical for sure, maybe even moral given our conditions in this moment, for white people to make the greater effort and take the initiative in in in having these conversations of in connecting and being curious and respectful. I don't think that should mean that black people, Jewish people should just sit and wait. That's fine. And I accept that. I accept that. I just don't want white people to believe, that this has nothing to do with them because it does. It's sort of like me saying, well, all the things happened to black people, that has nothing to do with me because it hasn't personally happened to me. That's a that's fallacious. That's a fallacy. I get I get where you're coming from now. You want to say with my example of the person who doesn't wanna have the relationship, you wanna say, don't just wait for it to come in your come into your lap. Right? Don't just wait for the time when you have to have the conversation. Like, have the motivation to seek it. Right? Because this has something to do with YouTube. Yes. Just because you're not running around spouting the n word, this still has to do with YouTube. Yeah. I take that. I understand now. Yes. I would agree with that. In terms of I'm really curious. One of the things in listening to and watching that that episode with you that came to my mind that I didn't think about before was I was talking about my grandfather at the end of his days and how, you know, the kind of emotions started coming out. And what flashed in my head was our conversation about the castle. The castle that you talked about kind of guarding and creating hesitation and caution and with a moat around it. With a moat with a moat around it. Yeah. And so for people who haven't yet seen that episode, it's, you know, what protects you emotionally and physically. Right? And what guards, you know, your kind of inner world or physical being. And it reminded me that that was basically talking about my grandfather's castle coming down. Mhmm. Right? And I said to you in that clip that I understood that the light switch just wasn't gonna turn on because so you walk in with caution and skepticism and concerns and worries and fears around, you know, how white people might treat you in in relationship or in the world. And that I can't just sit there and say, yeah, but Andre, I'm different. Right? And so you and you should just believe me on the face of it. Right? And my claim there, my thought there was, you know, in every relationship, there is trust building for whatever reasons. People bring it into their romantic relationships. They have whatever concerns they have, and they just they don't be coming unguarded right away. There is a process of confidence and trust building around our fears that happens to all of us and with all of us in our relationships. I have not met a person who does not bring fears and concerns and threats and worries and, into their relationship and guards themselves until they know those are safe to let out. And so that all being said, there is the other half of that process, right, which is again, to use the pool analogy, right? Okay, maybe there's a greater responsibility on average for the white people, the white person to jump in, but the black person would still need to jump in, right? And that in some sense is letting down the castle door, right, at least for a moment. Right? The drawbridge. The drawbridge. Right. And so I guess how do you have a desire for relationships. Right? And you have a desire, I'm assuming, for not just black relationships. Right? I mean I mean Well, I have. I I've had non-black relationships in 6 years. That you have. I know that you have. I'm not claiming that you don't, but I'm just saying you are not the kind of person who encloses your world. And you wanna know why I don't give it out of the things I've said? I mean, you do, but you don't. Like, you travel all over the world. Right? Like Yes. I am. You do and you don't. I know you have instincts to do so, so let me just be clear. But in your goals and aspirations for your life, you don't you don't desire to enclose yourself. So now why don't you? I have the answer to that question because I've been thinking a lot about including other people in the season 2, right, when we start taking this model of conversation and working with other people. Because despite, you know, despite any fears, social fears, and even fears of physical harm I may have, I'm still propelled by a genuine curiosity about people. And when you are a part of a group who be where the elders of the group have been telling you of a certain generation, you know, watch out or beware or make sure to mind yourself when you're around these people. You develop a natural curiosity, I'm like, well, who the hell are they? Who are who are these white people? What are they talking about? And so, you know, my relationships were always fostered around an educational experience. So these things are kinda easier to do when people are in school together. Now being a middle-aged man like I am now, that's harder to reach out to people who are not part of your group because you have to be very deliberate in meeting people and you don't wanna be offensive. Right? But it was in later it was through educational experiences, meaning at school, where I was able to do some of some of that social exploring with white people. Now don't get me wrong. I always went home to a black environment. Not only that, but black single mothers. Like, I just have a very I have a very I have a very black American story if I were to ever tell you how my life. But, being propelled by that natural curiosity, I thought that what would be learned, especially of myself and about the group, was more valuable than staying hidden. So that's why I've always did it. And that's why, I mean, that's what kinda led me, because I didn't have to become friends with you. Right? I could have been silent and stoic and ours and our university, I could have just stuck only to, you know, mostly black students. And I kinda know some people who had that kind of experience. Right? But I did. You know, I allowed my I re I remember the moment we bonded, actually. I remember the moment we bonded, and that's when I said, you know, maybe this guy is worth exploring. And then here we are 26 years later. Yeah. So what enables you I mean, you've answered the question a little bit in past episodes about, you know, you became more open with me showing respect and showing that curiosity toward you in in having a sense of empathy. I guess I guess what I would say is, if the challenge for white people is the initiative, right, it seems to me that on average again, that the challenge for the black community or at least some portion to say I'm open. To be unopen. You have to say I'm open. You have to say I'm open. To be to be willing to be to grasp that trust. Right? Mhmm. I'm not saying to just, again, flip the switch and I'm an open book, crush the castle walls. I'm not saying that, but I guess the willingness to, I don't know, take those confidence building measures and run with them, in a way that allows the conversation to move forward because you did that. Right? I mean, hell, in our first conversation You just cussed. No. You just cussed. You shared and you've never cussed. You shared your fears. Right? I mean, you know, you certainly didn't have to do that generally. You could have kind of to use your example of, like, even us meeting, and being roommates as freshmen, you didn't have to share it, and you certainly didn't have to share it in in in the first time we talked. You know? I'm Samantha. No. No. That's a reference to. So you shared it, but yet you have this castle. Right? And so I feel like you did grasp it. Right? You did you did give it a chance to fail, I guess, is what I'm saying. Because you talked about risks earlier, and I thought a lot about that we were watching too. And I said, would you when you asked me the question what it was like to be white, and I said, I didn't even think about it. And you said, and I said to you, and I can see saying that that that itself is a luxury. That not having to think about it frees my energies. And you said in that episode, to do what? To take risks. And so I know that risk is something important in your mind. And the thing is, is that it is a risk, right? I mean, it's a risk to initiate on the white side. We've talked about reasons why that's the case in previous episodes. But when that risk is taken, no one's perfect. That white person on the other side is not gonna be perfect. They're gonna make mistakes. And so I guess the question is, like, as long as you're seeing some reasons to feel more and more confidence, like, how do you bring yourself to take to take the risk, to be vulnerable, to be open? And that and that's a really important thing to bring up that no one is perfect because great I believe in the Lord. So for everybody, I believe in the Lord. Grace has been all throughout this conversation. Grace. God's grace. Todd's grace. My grace has been throughout this conversation. And, and to free yourself up, it's almost like a like a flower unfolding. So for me to be to take that risk, especially in the very first episode of the very first five minutes of the conversation. Well, if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. Meaning, if he has a genuine curiosity, then I'm gonna present it. And I'm going to, like I said, in the very beginning. And by the way, people, who watch this, this is not a lie. I'm not lying. When someone comes to you hard in hand, you rise, and you speak your truth. You wanna know my truth? This is my truth. The reason, and I can answer this so well because I've done this in my gay life. It's like, you know, there's trust when you come out to people, you're like, okay. Are these people gonna act negatively? Are they gonna try to do harm to me? It's the parallels are just there be being gay and being black. Like, woo. They're there. And the reason I said I said, you know what? I'm gonna give this man, Todd, the grace of being honest and having a truthful con because if I'm gonna just be hidden and then enclosed, what's the point? Then, you know, it's sort of like having an interview with a person or conversation with a person you know is not gonna open up, then you're just wasting both your time. So I'm not gonna waste I'm not gonna waste our time by not bringing a contribution. And I'm and I'm gonna bring the contribution of my experience and also the experience of the stories have been told to me by friends and family and just what I've learned in the media. So my point is that if this white person wants an awareness, am I am determined to make sure he leaves here with an awareness no matter what risk, if how risky it feels to me emotionally to do so. Mhmm. I can hear a reaction to what you just said in the sense of, like, why do that as a black person? Like, you wanna give me the awareness, you know, so that I, as a white person, can have the awareness. Like, why? Because we deserve to be known. And There's a self-interest in it too. It's like Not yes. Your benefit is not known and not stereotype. You we so my motivation in telling you all of those things because you have to understand, a lot of this has been me exposing my psychology, which has been really, really hard for me to do knowing that this is gonna be public. Right? But if I'm going to be known, if you wanna know me, like you said, in our friendship, we hadn't had this conversation, then I'm gonna let you know me. We deserve I we as black people, and me as Andre, deserves to be known. And not stereotype, not characterized, not mean, but known. And knowing is a 360-degree thing. Not a 180 thing, not a 270, because that means you're leaving pieces of the pile. The whole vibe deserves to be known. You know, that's really powerful to me. So, Indy just watched her first, like, full length movie, and it's the movie Coco. Have you ever seen that movie Coco? I love that movie. I was watching it 2 days ago. I'm obsessed with that movie. I know. Oh, you gotta hear, India and I perform remember me, that song. We just performed it to my parents, and my mom started, you know, tearing. I mean, it's just such a, such a power. Anyways, it reminds me of that song. It reminds me of the whole movie. Right? Because what is the most important, I mean, the quintessential thing in that movie is being remembered. Right? Your spirit is gone. The light of your life is gone from this world when someone when there is no one in the world who remembers you. And if there is a part of you that is not known, that goes with you. Right? And so if and, I mean, what is more powerful than being remembered, being known, being in the minds of other people, and hopefully, cross fingers, have having an impact, a positive impact in some way? You know, there's all this, you know, there there's people who kind of aspire to, like, immortality. And the way that I've always kind of viewed that is I mean, I don't know. Maybe we'll figure it out physically. I'm not gonna count people that you're not gonna Yeah. I'm not gonna count us out. But and some people don't want the immortality. But, anyways, just, you know, with us being physically mortal, right, and having an end, the way to be immortal is to be carried on in the minds of other people. Right? And you happen at the altar of the heart. Mhmm. Of course. Yes. Absolutely. Because if you don't make an impression that has some connection to the heart, it will be forgotten. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So what you just said is really, really powerful. And so I thought of that movie because, yes, you take it with you. Yeah. You take you take your experiences. You take your truth. You take your life. You take the story you've been writing with you unless you tell it. Unless you tell it, and you tell it in some way that that that connects with someone. So that was beautiful. That that that's a that's a amen. Yeah. That's awesome. I love it. Yeah. What you said really is so true. It's so true. Yeah. Speaking of your truth, you talked at the end. The last thing you said was the white people who showed you kindnesses. What how did those kindnesses affect you as it relates to black, white relationships? That they were possible. And do you come and go ahead. No. I was just gonna the latter part of the question is, do have those conversations do those conversations increase your ability to let the drawbridge down to, over time to white people more generally. I'm not saying that you just all of a sudden become an open book for everyone, but to have a sooner, stronger instinct to trust white people or not. And if not, why not? There's sort of lamppost on a path to say that the that this is possible, and it's worth doing. And may I add, the white people who showed me kindnesses I'm not talking about small things. They did they did big things for me. And the kindnesses were not only material, but they were also practical with respect I'm not practical. I'm sorry? Yeah. Like, what would be a big thing in in like that? More emotional. Well, one particular person showed me an immense amount of emotional support during high school when I deeply, deeply needed it at a time when I when I couldn't count on my family emotionally. My family will say that's not true, but it is true. So at a time when I couldn't count on my family emotionally, I had there was a white person in my life in an educational setting who is absolutely very dear to me even to this day, even though the person has since passed on, and who was an immense rock for me. And I will always remember. There's a there is this person, she is at the altar of my heart. So the ofrenda I have created an ofrenda to this woman in my heart because I and I remember. I remember the support. And there's when you are a teen, especially a gay and black teen to hell, you know, there's support is the biggest thing you need, right, other than just having your basic needs met. And my basic needs were met, but I need emotional support that I really, really need. So that's an example. And then another white person did help me out practically with, you know, a material good. So and this this isn't to say that, you know, black people have never done anything for me at all. But what I'm saying is very similar to your grandfather and the blanket, that when I was in either emotional or worldly need, there were white people who helped me without anything in it being for themselves. And we just kept it between us. And that has always touched me. Like I said, I'm a middle-aged man, and I still remember the I mean, this was decades ago, and I still remember what it was, how I felt and everything. So that's that kind of lamppost of light when, you know, the light of love when the light of love, and I don't mean loving. They love me specifically. Now I know that reflecting on all these years, but just the love of humanity and, you know, this person has a light inside of them, this young man, and I want to help cultivate it. And I think it's worth cultivating them seeing that light in me helped me see the light in them, which sees the light broadly. You know? And it's being drawn toward that light, toward what I know is the highest of people even when they're showing me their lowest, is what fuels my curiosity in people and why I do this show and why I think I'd be really good at doing this show, especially with other people, because I'm naturally curious about that light inside of them and what motivates them either to shine it or to dim it. And these people shine their light at a moment where I desperately needed to have light shine on me. See that to me I know we said this in the last conversation. That to me speaks so strongly to, like, what I have always taken to be the central theme of Black Lives Matter. You know, I know there are issues that are being advocated for and there are different peep people have different opinions on those issues, how big of an issue they are or how to solve them. And be that as it may, putting that aside, what I have gathered throughout this conversation and what I've always felt that Black Lives Matter phrase has meant to me is, is this feeling to know that someone cares about you. Thank you. Because that's what I when I when I saw BLM form, and I was like, you know, there's someone if something like that were to happen to me, thank God there's an organization that cared that it even happened. Seriously. They cared that it even happened. Yeah. Yeah. And our and our push the words being pushed out are saying, hey, other people, we don't feel you care. Yeah. I mean, and again, you can differ on how to tackle issues, you know, you can differ on that. But if you understand that underneath the issues and underneath the statement, at least for, I'm guessing a lot of people, is this sense of like, hey, we don't feel we care that we matter. The people that that non-black people care about us in this country. And it feels as though that we're not worthy of being known. Mhmm. Yeah. So these people show you these kindnesses, Andre. They see the light in you, meaning they see that you have something within you that gives them in just being a human and in particular in being Andre, that gives a reason to show, express love in action, caring in action. And through that, you see their light. Right? You see because someone who can give that, right, clearly has something inside of them. What are the series of how does that all come? Where do I put this? I'm trying to I'm wondering how those experiences affect you vis a vis white relationships in conjunction with the other stuff you talked about in terms of the historical history and current present moment and things you heard through family and friends about reasons to be skeptical, to be cautious. Right? And I'm not saying they can't be one narrative. They’re certainly one narrative. I can answer your question? They're they they're at least have the strong potential of being intention, and I'm wondering how they, if at all, compete with one another. So, like, can I have let me just ask this really specifically? Why not assume that most white people are going to be those people who showed you kindnesses or maybe some lesser version that they have the light inside. Right? So and some people do assume that, and that's their approach to living, and I respect that. The reason, I guess, my psychology did not evolve in that manner from, you know, childhood and forward is, you know, sort of like erring on the side of caution. So what you do is you have this narrative that, okay, this could potentially be something that doesn't turn out for your benefit, or these people could do you emotional or physical harm. And until something like and you even said it's about the with the analogy about the ledger. So until an individual shows that I'm on a different side of the ledger through a series of interactions, you know, sort of trickle that become a flood. Right? Or trickle that become a faucet that's turned on. Once you see that, you know, those all of that happening, then you begin to set the individual apart from the narrative you have about the collective. And I really feel that white people have done this with black people and sort of like, well, I think this about black people, but you you're okay. I've had that talked and told to me by, you know, being gay. Like, I don't believe in, you know, homosexuality, but you're okay. I mean, what's that one of them? What's that saying? You know, hate the sin, love the sin. That's rooted in that kind of thinking. Right? Sort of being mic my micro and macro myopic and otherwise in your view. And as individual as you have narratives about a group of people, as the individuals chip away and they move away from that world view that you have about those people, then you're able to, then you're able to engage in much more meaningful, interactions with those people. And once you have enough of that chipping away, then eventually the negative world view or the hesitation you may have had it is now fall apart, the castle. Thank you for watching this Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingrayshow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingraceshow.com. -As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. I already know the blowback we're gonna get for this. Because you see this light skinned black man sitting in a comfortable condominium and talking about his Costa Rican husband. Where what how the fuck are you an equal? How with a Stanford education, how are you how have your how has your life personally been done wrong? Or I can hear the blowback now. I can hear the blowback now. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.