Have Racial Issues Improved or Are Racist Motivations Still Widespread?

Thank you for tuning in to healing race. In this video, Andre and I discuss whether the motivations that fuel racial discrimination and inequality have decreased over the years or whether they have simply laid dormant ready to reemerge when times get tough. We also discussed how these racial prejudices get spoken in white circles and whether there is a link between racial prejudices and the policies that Americans support. So let's get to that conversation now. Enjoy. So with respect to race and public policy, then where is the line? When do we start having the conversation? When is when, okay, we say, okay. Now the elephant is making noise, and we need to deal with the elephant. Because it feels like in the US, we kick cans down the road. Yeah. I mean, I think that, honestly, to be perfectly frank, I think that's even more distant. I feel like if you can't have the conversation in your interpersonal life Mhmm. About race when it does come up, the likelihood of getting you to a place of supporting policies that rectify racial issues, if you don't already support them, that is Mhmm. It's a long stride to get there. But you're asking the question, when do we get to talking about those issues so that we can deal with them? Is that what you're asking, or when do we get to dealing with them? Because I think there's a whole lot of, like, political things that, like, structure issues. Because I want so because, I mean, those are both precursors to solving a problem. Right? So I'm asking both. Talking and doing something and eventually getting to a future state that's not like our current state. Or because I often wonder, you know, with respect to change, have things changed or have context just shifted. Right? So if you're examining a problem, let's say it's or, have you really understood the problem, or have you just changed the orientation of the problem? Mhmm. To make it look more palatable? Is that what you're asking? To make it look more palatable. Right. Or to make the appearance of, no. We've solved it. No. You didn't. You just changed the orientation of it. Mhmm. Especially with racial profiling. Yeah. So on the topic of racial profiling, yeah, that conversation has come up, and then it's died down at different times and then it's come up and whenever there are issues around crime and law and order obviously those tools start to become part of the conversation, right? Those discriminatory tools become part of the conversation again. And so you're asking, is that motivation still there, right? Is that tendency to go toward these discriminatory practices just always lying beneath the surface? And when times are good, we don't need them. But when times and so the issue looks like it's improving. But when times are good exactly what I'm saying. Yeah. Okay. So I just wanna make sure that we're on the same page. That's exactly what That's exactly what you're saying. And maybe that's me having a fatalistic mind. I don't know. But that's exactly what I'm saying. I'm like, uh-huh. Wait for the context to change, and then you'll see all this start happening again. Yeah. My theory around it is I think that until we have a better understanding of each other's experiences and backgrounds, they give us they give us a fuller view of what we each have to contend with. It's hard for me to see sustainable shifts. My shit. For me to see sustainable shifts in attitudes because people can always use other excuses. What do I or other reasons or how or develop other theories of why things are the way they are. So you'll get some people who say, as I don't have to tell you, but I'm just gonna bring it out into the into the open. Slavery was so long ago. Jim Crow was so long ago. Redlining was so long ago. Times have changed. When is it gonna be time for, let's say, the black community to just take responsibility and realize you have more opportunity now and plenty of opportunity to do what you want in life and be who you wanna be. And by the way, I wanna highlight that not only do just white people say this, but black people also say this too Sure. Is a critique of our own community. Exactly. Yeah. Absolutely. And so if you imagine someone who is white or black thinking about the inequities that exist without any sense of context of what that is really like and why there might be barriers beyond what we would think is fair for people based on the color of their skin Until they get a real sense that that actually does exist, it's going to be easy to just say opportunity exists, people need to take responsibility for their own lives, people need to take advantage of the opportunities that they have, people need to stop blaming the context. It's easy to have another theory that especially one that just keeps one in place. That keeps what exists in place. Right? For someone who doesn't see a problem, who doesn't experience a problem to understand that that there's a problem they need to fully see in that problem and say, oh, wow. I actually didn't really understand that. And it goes both ways. So I'm not gonna speak for you, but I'll just throw it out to you for you to comment on whether I'm right or wrong. But it seemed like through the course of our conversation, as you understood more and more how little race and racial conversations a part of my life was. Maybe you had some little increase at least of understanding of why I might be naive to certain things, not understand certain things, have taken longer to get to the point of maybe wanting to be a part of changing the That is true. And I've become less relations. I've become less judgy about it because my first thought is where's this dude been? Like Yeah. I've become less judgy about it too. Yeah. Just to know that this is just the experience that I had, and I think the same happens in the reverse. Right? And it will certainly happen in the reverse. Me having no understanding that you carry it around this this deeply emotional self-protective mechanism on an ongoing basis and that it affected little things in your life, like whether you're gonna walk in your neighborhood. Deeper than what I even realized myself actually as I talked it out with you. Yeah. That then opened my eyes to, wow, I should have had that conversation with Andre a long time ago. Wow. I understand where he's coming from in some of his views around race in America based on having that feeling. So I just think it's hard. It's easy for people to rationalize. We all rationalize. It's easy to people to rationalize why things can stay the way they are if they seem okay for oneself. We're status quo oriented. Like, even in our personal lives, it's easy to stay with our habits, right, to change a habit, to become healthier or to become, you know, more empathetic in our relationship or whatever changes we need to make. It's, you know, we're it's much easier to just keep using the same routines and to maintaining the same habits as a human being. And maybe that's why I wanted to that's what I call psychological safety. Mhmm. I think there is to get back to your question on that, I think there is a psychological safety. And that's what I was trying to bring up around having the conversation. It it's uncomfortable to have a conversation about race, or it can be. I found it enjoyable, but I can imagine I can imagine that it's uncomfortable. That if all of a sudden you hear someone saying something, you know, I'm gonna tell you about a recent experience, that I didn't have, but then I heard there's someone in my social network who was kind of in a social gathering that I could have been a part of. I did not happen to be a part of that that particular gathering. And I heard it reported that in that gathering, someone said they somehow the topic of race came up. I don't know if it was, like, some policy issue that was happening. I don't know if it was George Floyd. I don't know if it was, protests that were happening in like Portland. I can't remember exactly when it happens, but we've had plenty to talk about race in the last year. So one of those things was probably in the media circus atmosphere, you know, environment. And someone in that social circle said something like man, I'm gonna get it wrong, Andre, but it was like, well, I think black men do look scarier, or something like that. And when that person who was part of that conversation told me that, I was like, and what hap like, what happened? You know, like, I wished I was there. Mhmm. And it kinda felt like I don't remember exactly what the response was, but honestly, it felt like it kinda got laughed off. Mhmm. Right? People are just uncomfortable. Just so you know? For me, it's like, how can you not say like, what are you talking have you never seen a white person who looks scary? Have you ever Just so you know. Person who didn't look scary, who you didn't feel threatened by? Have you ever liked, for me, it would have been I would have been nice about I would have been, you know, I wouldn't have pushed them away. Right? Because then you just don't have a conversation. Mhmm. But I certainly would have entered into a conversation about that. Right? That's the kind of radical honesty that black people wanna hear from people who come on this program because we know you say that shit about us. We know you say it. Uh-huh. I will. Who? Me? No. Not you. Not you. Not you. You know it is said You know those things are being said. That sometimes that sometimes are said. I don't wanna do I don't wanna make it seem like this is like an ongoing con for some people in the in the country, race for some for some white people in the country, race is a very salient issue. And there are people I would just wanna be even though I push back on how extensive some of these psychological attributes are with white, you know, with white the white population, I do wanna be, you know, acknowledge there are people who are outrightly, either in society or outrightly in their social circles, have white supremacist views. Right? Or have at least really negative views of people, black people. Yeah. Let's so let's be perfectly honest that that that does exist in the country. Okay. For those people, I'm sure there's ongoing conversation like that. For, I'd say, a large portion of people, I don't want you to imagine because I don't think this is that a comment like that is, like, coming up all the time. Like, I in my life had never heard anything like that in my circle. I still haven't, like, in front of me. And maybe if I were there, it wouldn't have been said. I don't know. Could be. Could be. But the point is that but the point you're making is that it does come up. Right? That these that's that these prejudices, these biases are spoken sometimes. Mhmm. And then and then what happens when that's the case? Right? And they certainly would be less likely to happen Because we like I said, you behave the behavior bears it out. So the public policy when I mean behavior, the public policy or whatever bears it out. That's why we feel that way. I would be more that's why you feel that way. And, you know, I'm always hesitant about ascribing motivations to policies for all the reasons that we've talked about because there's other motivations that can happen. Yes. But when it comes to other kinds of interpersonal behaviors where, you know, does someone I don't know. See a black person enter the room and look to make sure their wallet is secure. Right? Excellent example. That's and that's or do someone see a black person on the street, let's say, and start walking more quickly? Mhmm. A crossover. Shit. A crossover. Right. Or so in some of those other those other behaviors that happen, that I can more understand as being a direct link between a feeling, a thought that yeah. I see that. I see. Black people look scary. Right? And then, yeah, we can see it in your behavior when you check your wallet or you cross street door. So I can understand that. I can understand that if you have seen that happen in your environment or you've heard it through your social network that one of your friends went to a restaurant and whatever happened. Right? One of these behaviors happened. That that is an outward example of something that is felt or thought internally. And you might wonder whether those things are talked about. I mean, sometimes they're not because, to be honest, like, I don't know a lot of people, Andre, who would even be so brash to say something like that in the social circle, even if it was an all-white circle. So I think when I think a little bit of my not confusion, but difficulty in answering the question of, like, what do we talk about in white circles is that I think the question to me is more what are the thoughts and feelings people have that they don't verbalize, but that show in behavior? Because a comment like that one is not acceptable in a lot of all white, gatherings. You wouldn't know if some white person in that group someone would be who would speak up, would be someone at the very least who if they didn't feel comfortable saying something, would judge you for it. Mhmm. Now is it more comfortable in an all-white group than in a mixed-race group? Of course. Like, who the hell is gonna say that with you being there? Right? Uh-huh. Hope someone is at the core. So I understand why you think people would be more comfortable bringing it up. And I think you'd be surprised with how little something like that, at least in my spheres, people would say anything like that, even if they might feel it, think it internally, and show behaviors that exhibit it. I accept that. I think that's just your circle, but I get that. Yeah. I can't keep and quite honestly, I'm gonna keep pushing you to make that link between that sort of individual behavior and motivations behind public policy. Like, I'm not gonna let that go because I think the individual behaviors inform policy decisions that we support as people. I agree. I'm not disagreeing with that, Andre. I'm not disagreeing. I think there's research that bears that out. I know research around welfare support that bears out that it's views on, views about the black population, views about I think this particular one was, single black mothers, like, views on single black mothers had a strong influence on whether someone supported welfare. So I and it and it wasn't the same for single, there was there was an effect for single white mothers, meaning people who are just in who are just, single mothers period and in poverty. But the strong effect was when it was someone who was black. So, that's just one of, like, a whole set of examples of the ways in which bias led to different behaviors in interviewing and hiring and in in all sorts of areas. So I am I would be having seen the research that I've seen I would be blinded you know I would be blinded to say that personal views about black people personal biases don't wind up leading to support or lack of support for policies. They certainly Thank you for saying that, Todd. Thank you. I'm just also like I just made a touchdown in a football game. I really do. As you acknowledged, though, also that there could be other motivations is all that I that's the old that's the point that I wanted to make. I would say it. I would accept that. Todd, I am excellent when it comes to rhetoric. Trust me. Oh god. I love this show. So can I ask you a reverse before we Please? Please. Do you see any of the same hesitation in black circles about talking about white people? Is there ever clear Sorry about that. Yeah, so I'm assuming that in black gatherings, there are sometimes when there are conversations that talk about white people and Hell yeah. Evaluate them. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. We share information. So is there ever hesitation about saying something that might be negative about white people because of the judgments that that they might get in a black circle from someone who might say, hey. I think that's biased. Hey. I think I think it's such a to answer your question, there is. So we it is it is negatively received if a black person would try to denigrate a white person that we know is a good person. Or to try to denigrate white people and, like, let's say, at a party to their face. Like, you would like, let's say we have a, you know, a white person at a party and to say something that denigrates the white race or white people, that is real that's not accept that is uncouth. Got it. Or, like or like I said, it to denigrate a white person who you know is a good person. They're like, uh-uh. Then, that's no. But the white race in general is not necessarily about denigration, but it's about just things to look out for, especially for black people, at least in my social circle, it really centers around employment. And just sort of the shady ways shade is thrown at us on jobs. Irrespective of what job it is, it could be the highest social cast in corporate or it could be lower social cast. But a lot of it centers around employment and being conscious of the shade that could come our way, in my even in minute ways and how to deal with it. That's been my social experience is watch out because they could do, or they could say and that could lead to etcetera kind of thing. Interesting. But we don't we don't just denigrate white people out of hand. That's not that that I have been in environments, and I think I've even made a comment about white people who black people knew to be good, and I was shut down. I was like, no. That's you know, you don't talk about them like that. Yeah. I think, you know, I think what you just said is a really important distinction. I'm glad I asked the question. Here's why. And I and I just wanna add to it a little bit. Because what you're saying is that there is an experience of bias and discrimination that members of the black population experience, and there is conversation about what to look out for in that way and strategies to use, I'm assuming, to handle it. Mhmm. Now someone might say, so that's very practical, right? That's a very practical conversation rather than an outright biased or prejudice conversation. Like, white people are just like this or that or whatever. That's the first distinction that I think is really important. The second thing, though, is someone still might say, well, you have these conversations about what to expect or what might happen, but that kind of assumes that any white person is gonna act that way. And well, we assume that it could come from any one of a person because we've had someone in the southern their friend or family network that had the experience. Right. So what we are maybe it's kinda contrary to your personal thinking, but we assume that what happened to 1 black person could happen to any black person. At least in my social circle, we do. So it's that's why that's the impetus behind sharing information. Yeah. And so that that distinction is the next distinction I was gonna make because I think some people would maybe read that as you being about you stereotyping or your group stereotyping white people to act in a certain way. And what I think is different here is you're not necessarily assuming that every white person would do that. What you're saying is that this could happen Mhmm. For someone who carries racial bias in that way, and here's how to prepare for it. So if the so if the elephant ever lands at your doorstep, this is what have this is the way people in your friend and family network dealt with it. Yeah. Yeah. And so I'm trying to channel how someone might respond to this and flip it around. And I don't I because this is like a new way of thinking for me, and a new conversation. I'm not exactly sure what I even think about it, but I'm just gonna throw it out there. Mhmm. What if someone who is white said the same thing in reverse to you about black people? What if they said, I don't think that every black person is x, whatever it is, Aggressive or Scary looking. Scary looking or scary acting. Right? Or what were the three things, my colleague had said about the things he was hearing from Ku Klux Klan members, lazy, criminal, and Untrustworthy? Oh, no. It was it was, it was, stupid. Yeah. Those are We're often we're often, is yeah. And I challenge that if they only knew the number of black innovations that the country relied on. Yeah. Now granted, I just wanna be really perfectly, like, very these are Ku Klux Klan members. So these are people who are their way, you know they’re invested really not into the target franchise. But anyways, whatever stereotypes one might say with black people are or black women are, or black men are, and they said, well, I've had this experience, and I haven't had it with a white person before. And they said, well, we're having this conversation to kind of prepare for that situation. Right? Would that feel racist or prejudiced or biased in a way that doesn't feel for you talking about a white person treating a black person in a certain way? Hell, yes. So tell me what the reason why is. Oh, I'm about to tell you. The reason why is because our motivation is self-preservation. Right? And trying to try to keep together the support and what we have. The white person who's coming with this sort of scenario, you don't necessarily more than likely, you're the person in the power position, and you're not coming from the same motivation. You don't you're not trying to keep together and the supports that you have in life. For us, it's a matter of us supporting one another where you what you're doing is literally perpetuating a stereotype. We're not out there trying to try to, how would you say, sort of, like, denigrate white people in order to perpetuate a stereotype. We're trying to support one another. We wish we wouldn't didn't have to have these strategies or pass along this information because then the world would just be equal. But because it's not and we're not all, like, living in Wonderland with Alice, then you need information. With the white people, it's different. You So what if someone said so I'm just trying to I'm trying to channel what I might hear as pushback. Okay? Sure. So what if someone said, which I've heard spoken out there, well but it is self-preservation in some ways. So if we're going to talk about, let's say, criminal behavior. Right? And if we look at the proportions out there of crimes, it's gonna show up that crimes are more likely to be committed by a black person. You're wrong. So first of all, all of that all of those statistics and depends on what's happening at the edge. Right? Meaning, how are people so what are the main avenues of intake to deal with criminality, and how is criminality being reported? So we, we've heard the I completely out of hand reject that because we've heard this over and over and over again with no what is this show about? What is reality about? Nuance. With no nuance with respect. The nuance? What is the nuance there? So you provided some of the framework the frame like I just said, the framework with which criminality is first reported and then the intake of the said criminal of the alleged criminal. Right? Because we live in a guilty versus, you know, proven this kind of a thing. But that's why I completely reject that out of hand. That's why it doesn't that's why what the white person sort of pushback feels or there, you know, in your scenario, if they were to come and say we are self-preserving ourselves or whatever, that feels racist because you are the ones in power. Like, I mean, I would almost agree. Yeah. It is. There is an aspect of self-preservation. You're trying to preserve the system of inequity because you get to benefit from it. You're the ones who are in power and shit. We're trying to preserve our ability to just live our lives that you're trying to impede because of your white supremacy. Yeah. So you would bring a now what I would just say to you as a little pushback on that evaluation necessarily is what you're saying, what I'm hearing you're you are saying at the beginning of what you said is they have they have incorrect information. Or that they at least have information that lacks nuance. Yes. So then the question would be, they're acting on the information that currently exists. Right? And so I guess the question of Well, no. They're acting on information that has been crafted to suit their purpose. Correct. That has been crafted We're acting on information to help preserve basic need, like not getting fired from my job or not ending up in the criminal justice system. Yeah. I'm not suggesting I'm not suggesting that that these data points are not crafted, in some way. All I'm saying is there are recipients of these this information that form the view of the world that someone might have. If this is if this is what they think the facts are because whatever they happen to watch shares these as the facts of the matter, they probably honestly genuinely think those are the facts of the matter. And the question is, if they get different facts of the matter, do they update their beliefs and their actions accordingly? What I would like to say is not necessarily because depending on what the new information may be, it could directly challenge the worldview that have given them a sense of psychological safety, so they reject it. Mhmm. It's true. And I think you understand at least some portion of that. Here here's why I think you understand some portion of that is that you said the exact like, almost literally the same words about yourself when you were talking about kind of the castle. Right? Oh, yeah. I do. I understand why white people the way are they are. If I were white, hell, I may do the same thing, but I'm not. So I'm advocating for the people who are. This is all to say that we all have self-protective mechanisms. Right? That that what did you say at some point? You said, you had something you had something great. I don't know how you would like to quote me back to me. No. Because I think there's wisdom in what you say, but actually You're so sweet. No. I really mean it. You said you said something about when we were talking about cancel culture, you said we need to be careful about not dismissing people out of hand and listening to their experiences, especially the ones that challenge our worldview. Right? I do say that. And what I'm suggesting to you is I think you're right; this person might have a worldview and a worldview that they think is protecting them in some way. And so even getting new information, they might be resistant to that, right? Because they might think, oh, if that takes a brick out of the castle, am I gonna be protected? Because I know this world of people. Take a brick out of the castle. Yeah. So I'm just saying, I think you understand. I think you're right. And I think you have a personal experience. I think we both I think we all do of that of that holding on to a narrative that we think has protected us or led to a vision of the world that we think that we wanna hold on to for some reason. Right? For some motivation. I think we you know; I think humans do that. So But I do wanna highlight because I'm with people in the back of my mind with respect to who's gonna see this in the world. That that critique has been said as though black people are holding on to victim mentality, and that's not what's going on here. So a desire for equity and highlighting all of the instances throughout history where equity has been less than optimal is not holding on to a victim mentality. What we're trying to do is escape the victim mentality. What, you know, people are and maybe I should quit saying we and say I. What I feel is that we're trying to move beyond that, and the way to move beyond that is to make is to engender greater equality. Yeah. I feel like it's part of you can't paint people as victims and say, you know what? Everyone's equal. You're gonna have equal access to this good. Let's talk in economic terms. You have equal access to this good and service irrespective of race. Everyone gets it. Right? And so if a person tries to come and say, well, you know, I'm being victimized or whatever, depending on the context of that of that scenario, that’s a hard argument to make, but it's an easier argument to make when it's obvious that there are some impediments to people based on race receiving the good or service. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a tough trap to get out of to have barriers that are baked into our society in some way. I mean, let's let me step back. I just don't know any situation in which we are wholly responsible for our destiny. I just don't. That that isn't a combination of our personal actions in the context. I mean, we're not, but we certainly have we influence it. We're co-creators in it of it. Exactly. So that being the case, let's say, for all human beings. Right? Talking about the circumstances or conditions that led to some outcome for my life does not mean that I'm not also acknowledging personal responsibility and what I need to do in my life. Right? And what I think is a trap that I think is that's problematic to me is when people think that you can't talk about context, that is really providing barriers because it means that all of a sudden, you're a victim. Right? And so you, not you, me, or anybody Mhmm. Is therefore impeded by some barriers, still working hard, right, to overcome them, but impeded by them, but unable to talk about them because any talk of them means that I'm being judged or perceived to not be taking responsibility. I think that is a vicious trap that is uncalled for and unreasonable. Now we can have reasonable differences about looking at some set of facts and saying to what degree are we responsible or not? Or how much are certain barriers affecting us or not? I think there's reasonable disagreement to be had on the extent and level and does it happen, you know, more in some areas of the country or less in some areas of the country. There's plenty of nuance and discussion and debate to be had around that. But to outright say that any discussion of some sort of systematic barrier means that someone's not taking responsibility is, to me, just a trap. It's just a trap to not be to not be able to change things that might actually exist in the context. And that that I find very problematic. And so I empathize. And I've yes. What I do my bad paradigm of thinking has been projected onto black people with some things. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. These people have been indeed white people, let me let me say not say these people, white people have been in power from the day they land on this country until today. Mhmm. And that's not an accident. That's not that's not happenstance. So somebody somewhere is having a conversation about how to organize ourselves into longevity and into perpetuity. Like that that that is a that's a when someone may say that's not on a you know, it's not maybe I'm being, you know, I would just say, paranoid or something like that. I'm like, I hear what you're saying, and I could take your point because I'm not saying that's happening in every white house household. Mhmm. But in key white households, it's happened enough to keep them in power from the day they walked out of this land until today. Mhmm. And that's like I said, that's not happenstance. That's do that's deliberate. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.