What is it like to be Black in America?

What happens when college freshman roommates Friends of 25 years 1 black 1 white have their first conversation about race? When Todd asked me about having our first conversation about race and recording it to make it public. I thought to myself, what can I say that isn't said already by others? Then I thought, when a person comes to you, heart in hand and ready to listen, you rise and speak your truth. Look. We have a situation in this country. And I realized I wasn't a person in the news cycle. I was a real person with the key to opening a heart. As you'll see, Andre and I don't agree about everything, and there are some tense moments in our conversation. But we lay it all out on the table without fear of judgment or blowback, knowing that we are imperfect people having a conversation about a complicated topic, and we will make missteps. Look. We're human. We're emotional. And we often generalize about people. And sometimes we forget that reality and people are nuanced. Andrea and I share our experiences and beliefs when it comes to race, knowing that we don't know the whole story about race in this country. And can't speak for all black people. Or all white people. We know we don't have the answers, but we do have a willingness to listen and explore as we have the real deal, no holds barred, don't filter what you think, conversation about race. So, what does the first conversation about race look like? So, like, when did you first experience being black as something and being black as something negative? Right? So, it's, like, the awareness that there's difference, but then it's, like, the charge, like, how it's how you know, that it's in some ways a bad thing to be, a difficult thing to be. Hold up. Because that that's we have that's a that's a deep question and deeper than you know, and I have to explain parts of it. Okay. It has to do it has to do with me and my physical appearance. So, I am light skinned. Yeah. And woo, light and bright. And that means something. It does in this world. Like, it's a tangible thing that there is sometimes in certain groups preference shown for people who have lighter complexion. So, to answer your question, I first knew that black was something because I was just always around black people. Like, I even though I guess I live as a black professional now, I did not grow up that way. So, I grew up in a place where there were just always black people. Some were professionals, some were working class, but I was never one of few. I was always one of many. Even in the public schools, there were white people. There were because, I remember I remember when I first learned what a Jewish person was actually because, I went to a middle school that had Jewish people, and I learned about Shabbat, Yom Kippur, Rosh Hashanah because they would on the holy days, they wouldn't be in some likes, why are the people after school is gone? Yeah. So, I remember knowing that I was something in those tween years because I was in a community of people that all looked like me, and there were no real outsiders. And then I would go to a public school, take a bus, go to public school, and there were still tons of black people, but also tons of other people, tons of white people too. But what I the deeper awareness is of my skin color that came in those years and also later in life as I started to see that I had easier relationships with white people than my black friends. Mumm. You know, like, I was the place I was at last night, like, it's just, like and a white person once told me a white man once told me, say, you're not threatening. Like, you're just I just had easier relationships, and I started to explore that myself. I'm like, why? Because black people would have all these stories of these just really awful interactions with white people. Not that they were being called the n word, but just really interactions full of bias. And I was like, I don't really have all of that. I mean, I have some of it, but not as much as the rest of you. And that's when I'd started to coalesce in my mind that your lightness means something. Your lightness is valuable. Your lightness is for preferred, not only within not only with white people, but also within your own black community, you know, to some degree. I mean, there are infinite stories of black men who only date light skinned black women. And, you know, and so that's why it's a 2-part question. And with respect to how what I did with that information, it depends on whether my egoic mind was showing up or my, you know, my alliance with the infinite mind. But I would say by the Christ like nature that we all have the possibility of manifesting. So, I do cringe at some of my, you know, manifestations once I had that information. And some of the biases that I developed about white people, literally, because it was like, well, if you're not gonna like me, I won't like you. You. So yeah. And no one benefits with that. But it was in those twin years, and I'm still learning about how to navigate those waters. But, yeah, I hope I answered your question. Yeah. So, so you did partially. So let me see if I got so far what you what you said. So there was a way in which there was a way in which you had easier relationships with people who were white. Mhmm. Not had. I still do. That you still do? That you still do? I still do have easier relationship with white people. And but you said there was so would you say your experiences generally as a black person who had relationships with white people, your general feeling about white people and your relationships with them up until you got to the point where you saw some sort of discrepant right? You saw a difference. Was it largely positive that you had a feel like, thoughts and feelings about the relationships and about, again, white people? No. Did it have any kind of negative aspect and, like, where did that come from? I did. I'll tell you where it came from. And the reason the answer is no. And I think it just it speaks to the difference in where you and I were raised in the United States. So, I've always known I live in the South. Yeah. And the specter of, you know, the vitriol that can be thrown a black person's way in the south was always present in my mind. Did you experience it, or it was just Not real. I've never really experienced it. Okay. But I've always been cognizant that it could happen. So, I have largely been very skeptical of white people, not fearful, but skeptical and sort of treaded lightly around them because I was like, yeah. I may have easier sort of relationships, but I'm still black. And I know what that means. Yeah. So, I'm very cognizant that I live in the south. I was raised in the south. I live in the south now. Yeah. So, it I never once felt that my skin color, my lightness was some sort of, like, get out of black free card. No. No. No. If you're not I'm like, I don't care how I don't care how palatable I may be to certain white people, I'm still black. And so and so is that something that you learned through ideas that you heard from family and or friends? Was it based on not just ideas, but, like, tangible experiences that you heard what they had to go through and didn't wanna experience it yourself? Like, what were you what led to that skepticism? Like, how did you learn that? And yeah. Let's start there. Like, how did you how did you learn that? Not so much through family experience, but experience in the broader black community. Okay. Discrimination that I heard about, those things. Because my, I mean, my family is not very political. So, we basically lived our lives and went to work and came home and white people were around at work, but in the social life, they were never around. Yeah. Even to this day, my family, we only like, for my nuclear family, not extended family. I don't know what my extended family does, but we only have black friends. We I mean, clearly, I'm friends with you, so I don't not only have black friends. Yeah. But it's large it's mostly black and African American people. So when I was fur more so through pop culture and just the culture of this I mean, you've never spent extended time in the South, but it's just known in the South. Like, that's it the legacy of the South is palpable. It's still here, and it's just known in the South that being black harm can come to you because you are a part of that group, even if you're black adjacent. So even aligning with it. And, I mean, some may say, well, not physical harm. And physical harm is generally an extreme even though if we look at the case of, like, Breonna Taylor and all these other different things, it happens. But social harm, just all the different ways in your life is lessened. And so just I've always been an intuitive person and intuiting the culture around me, I just knew that these, even though they're not happening to you, these things can happen to you. So just take care of it and take measures to be safe. Yeah. And so you were hearing it from whatever your social circles were at the time. It made you it gave you this feeling of skepticism. And it exists in the north too, but I can only speak I can only speak about being in the United States because this is where I've spent all of my life is in the American south in the US south. Yeah. And so and so my question is, if you feel comfortable, like, what did you worry about happening? Like, what did you wanna protect against? Like, that skepticism, what did you, so you heard stuff. You had images, I'm guessing, in your mind of what could happen, and then being murdered by white people. Okay. Like and I'm don't cry. Don't cry. Like, being physically harmed by white people. Being drugged, put being attached to these people's car and dragging, being drugged like James Byrd back in 1998, by being harmed by white people. Being my physical person, that's what I think about now, being harmed by white people. Yeah. And you thought about it back then? Yeah. And now. It's just like Yeah. Because, I mean, during the pandemic, we had lovely, lovely weather. And I had taken to walking to the grocery store, and I love to go for a long, long walk. So I would have to walk about a mile through the neighborhood to the grocery store, and it was a lovely, lovely walk. Beautiful days. I remember I just so enjoyed it. And I was like, Andre, what if one of these homeowners, because I live around a lot of white people, mistake you for some kind of burglar or anything, and then instant your life can change. You need to start driving. And that's unfortunate that I'm fearful to go on a walk in the in a neighborhood where I pay property taxes. Yeah. Because I could be misstated. Louis Gates was mistaken for a burglar in front of his own home. Yeah. Yeah. I could be mistaken for a burglar. Do you see all the ways in which your life is contrived? And so that's what I worry about, that harm could be done to me just because I'm black. Yeah. So what was that like? I know you say it's now too, and I'm I, you know, I'd like to hear about if you're if you're open, you know, to sharing the trajectory of that experience. So you've you're concerned about kinda your physical self, and it being harmed. I guess, 2 questions I have is, like, was that the main and only concern? Like, would verbal, you know, emotional mental harms like, was that even something that was in your mind over time? Did that matter at all is one question. And then I guess the bigger question is whatever those worries were, be they just physical, which is, you know, powerful enough and maybe otherwise, like, what did that how do you think it impacted you? Not just in your relationship relationships with people who are white, at school and in the other context that you were in around white people over time. How present is that impact, and what do you think the impact was on you, like, over time? I was just How do you experience how does that how do is this something that comes up every now and then? Is this something that stays with you? And, like, what does it lead to that would be different if you didn't feel that? I don't trust people. Yeah. Literally. I don't trust people because of that. So the answer to I'll take the latter question first. I have issues with trusting people and opening myself up to white relationships. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. I'm a I don't uh-uh. I don't trust, and it's because of that. So and that's not a way to live because and these are, like, it's how can I it's like, it's not a way to live because I don't trust people who've been kind to me? Yeah. I don't trust people who've not shown me bias. That's not right. You know? Like, people who've given me no reason to believe that they have any, you know, malevolent intention whatsoever. I don't trust them. And that's not right. And that's how it's manifested in my life. And my other to address it, I believe your first question, my other fear is my career being stymied Mhmm. Because I'm black. That's why so many African Americans, you know, wanna become entrepreneurs or they are entrepreneurs. Because at least in some way, you can take your destiny in your own hands. I don't have to worry about it. Will my boss give me a bonus or not give me a bonus? Will they ding me for that project or not that or this project? You know? Because you're black or because maybe they believe a black person is slightly less deserving, or you give an easier assessment to someone who's white versus someone who's black. You know that I mean, career is a huge worry of mine. Because like I said, like, I mean, it's known we make, like, at least $1,000,000 less than most white people over our lifetime. Yeah. That is a huge chunk of money. Everyone makes over $1,000,000 in their life. Even if you think you're not, you do. But, you know, and, you know, when a person is making a $1,000,000 less, that's a really different life. That's vacations you didn't take. Maybe that's a private school. Maybe that's tutoring for your kids. You know? Yeah. Career was other than physical harm, career was a big worry. And not trusting people has limited the fullness of humanity for me. You know that I'm judging a person because they're white and because of the history of the South, no matter how they treat me. And I do. Seriously, I recognize that as a bias. And it's just a mechanism for me to self-protect my physical harm and also the emotional harm that can, you know, be done when you trust a person and they end up betraying you in some way. When I reflected on our first conversation, I mean, the moment that hit me the most was when you talked about, like, being fearful of your physical being, of your physical person personhood. And, I mean, you also described worries about social harm and career harm and, and those matter to you as well. You know, it seemed like the social harm wasn't as strong because you had a social base in the black community that you knew you'd always have. Right? So the career harm was a little bit more, but the physical harm was something that seemed to be pretty profound for you, and it was profound for me to hear that. Because I never knew that. I just never, I never knew that you, you know, felt like you had to walk through life worrying about whether you were gonna be physically harmed. And so I, you know, in putting that, my and I'm sorry about that. You know, I'm sorry that you had to feel and still feel like you have to feel that way and protect yourself and be cautious or as what is you what you said even in terms of white relationships, you know, be skeptical, as, like, a first approach to white relationships. Many of us are like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I that was powerful for me to hear coming from you because I never had a sense of that, from you. It was, sad for me to hear. Not definitely because I'm giving, I'm not gonna give off that sense to you. I know. I'm not you or any other white person. So you're not you're never gonna feel it from me, but it will always be there. Because so when I'm in your presence, my energy will shift to make you think that all everything's cool. But I think one of the big thing takeaways you sound like you took from our conversation is that I concentrate a lot of self-preservation. Yes. And a lot of black people do. And even though our outward feelings may be, you know, jovial or whatever, and, you know, like, oh, Andre is cool. It's still a current running through our mind in all aspects of our life. So can one of the things it's I understand, and I don't feel I have a perfect I'm never gonna have a perfect understanding, but a strong understanding still of where, so, of where that of where that came from such a young age. Like, what you talked about it coming from stories you've heard and also pop culture. And I just I don't it's hard for me to understand why you felt that fear of physical like, what were the stories you were hearing? Like, what were you seeing? Like, now, you know, with cell phones, we see these incidences, right, with police and otherwise. And, again, this wasn't part of my information environment. Right? All of what we would think of as popular culture, and also my real-life stories. Right? Not just my own, but the others who are in my, you know, social network. Like, what were you hearing that that led you to fear for your physical safety? Like, what is that impact? What is it that leads to that if it's not happening to you or if something like that is not happening. Do you know what I mean? I think completely what you mean. And as you talk, like I said, it's the luxury of being white. So enlighten me on what, you know, experience was for you that that led you to have this persistent feeling if you if you feel comfortable. Oh, I totally feel comfortable. Yeah. And it's not some incident. It's not some childhood trauma. It is knowing the history of how we have been treated in this country. Okay. If you just know American history, you're like, oh, I see why he feels that way. Hey. This is a not to mention, I've spent nearly all of my life in the United States South. Yeah. This it’s this and then this I think there's a bit of a cultural difference between the 2 of us because you're from the West Coast, and I'm don't get me wrong. The West Coast has its issues, but I've been there. And a lot of race riots happened there. But there's an under there's always an undercurrent of the history when you live in the south. Just by knowing US history, you know to fear for your safety. You I just know history. And I know I'm a part of that group, and I'm like, well, hell. You know? You are just and also your families inculcate you to always be aware when something could get started. Like, always be hyper aware of your environment. Okay. You know? Like, this is it's just a part of it's a part of being, and this is something that you just don't have to deal with. Yeah. Or maybe, you know, this it's just a part of being. You have to you have to, you know, educate your children that you are a part of a group that could be targeted at any moment for whatever reason. And number 1, you need to be conscious of the environment so you can identify the situation. And number 2, know how to flee it or diffuse it. Yeah. So what would okay. So it's so what I'm hearing is this it's learning the history. It's learning what black people have experienced in in America. And knowing that you're black, and you're in America, and you're in particular in the South, what do you think, like, where do we need to get? What do you think needs to happen to for there to be a feeling of safety knowing that, yes, there is that history, but that history is not now. And I'm not saying that there are not things now, but what I'm saying is I'm trying to figure out when we stop taking when you feel the black community wouldn't feel that today I have to feel unsafe, physically unsafe as a black person because of this history, right? Do you do you understand what I'm saying? Like, when I go to when I go to Germany, and granted there wasn't, like, the same there wasn't even though the Holocaust was there, there wasn't the same kind of history, long history, in the same way there was an America for black people. Okay? So I recognize that. But I don't go to Germany, you know, and I don't I'm sure there are German neo-Nazis. You know, I'm sure there are groups of German neo-Nazis, but I don't I don't go to Germany feeling unsafe. And in fact, I had this, you know, the first time I was there I had this experience that, like, was kind of bewildering for me. There was a girl who asked who I was, and she, I don't I don't know how it came to be that I said that I was Jewish, but something she asked it for some reason, and she started profusely apologizing, like, profusely apologizing for what the German people had done to the Jews. And I was like, I don't feel I need your apology, you in particular. But So I've had a certain feeling that is clearly on the reverse side of what was experienced back then. Do you understand? In Germany, and I got heckled by teenagers from being black. Yeah. Maybe I should have said I was Jewish. I don't know. So this this this it's not just a US thing. Like, kinda a friend once said, when did someone have the world conference to decide that we were a group of people to hate? Like, this this is all over the world. I mean, we just were concentrated because we're both from the US and we've lived most of our lives in this country. And this is the bedrock of our experiences. But, to answer your question of, like, what would need to change? And I and I wanna talk specifically about the physical safety. Right? Like, I understand that they're, like, discrimination. I felt physically unsafe in Germany when I was being heckled by those 2 people. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because I'm like, I'm here in Germany alone. I was there on a layover in the city. I won't mention it. Yeah. I was there on layover in the city for, like, 9 hours, and I was like, I'll go out and see the city. And I'm literally just walking around with a backpack, just looking at sites at this in particular. But I was one of few no wonder I was the only one in that German Square. And there was a sense of fear. I'm like, I don't speak this language. I don't know these people. I'm here all along, you know, by myself. And I remember, like, ducking into, like, a restaurant just to so they would leave me alone and just pretend like I wanted to eat or whatever. So they would just move on and then yeah. That happened. Yeah. Actually, about 4 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. But in the United States, what has to change, I think it's a series of steps to show that our lives are valued and are respected. I think a lot of it for me, I can't speak for the black race or African Americans or, you know, people in the African diaspora here in the US. But I can speak for me and for me, a lot of it begins with law enforcement because they are such a model in the community when they begin to show that we value black lives, you know, and we respect black lives and all of its representation, then that would make me feel a much more comfortable with my safety. And then anyone who tried to attack my safety or violate my safety would be held accountable. You know? And so because when people feel they will be held accountable, I mean, sort of like that's it's a perimeter. Like, they're less they're less likely to, you know, commit an infraction. Yeah. You know, Derek Chauvin didn't feel he would be held accountable. What he was doing was within the letter of his job description. Yeah. So he did it. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's the history that you kinda learned and were, like, did you like, you talked a little bit about the stories that you heard. Like, did you hear stories where if you were in because I'm still trying to think, like, how was your learning of the history brought to the present where you felt we're still in this place where I need to, I need to protect myself physically among, you know, as well as in other ways? Like, were there stories you heard from other people, you know, that you were like, well, if I was in that circumstance, I would feel physically unsafe, that lets you know, wow. We're it's still the case that I need to be protective of myself. I think it's all of the events. Right? It's the history. It's the present. I think it's, like, it's so and please don't be offended by this. No. I think you and I live in 2 different realities. Like, because I'm like because to me, all of this is so obvious, and I'm like, I'm struggling to understand what you don't understand. I'm like I mean, that was the basis of our that was a huge part of our conversation. Like conversation, which is sound on the same. Yeah. I know, which is absolutely. I don't really know what that I'm trying to put myself into that situation where Let's be nice. Yeah. Listen, my grandfather, who had a direct experience. Right? My grandparents both but I had this particular conversation a lot more with my grandfather. He did not want non-Jewish people in his house. Mhmm. And the trauma of the Holocaust, I, you know, I felt trusting of and, like, don't get me wrong. He had relationships. They were business relationships. You know? They were transactional relationships. Yes. But if I were to ask this is earlier in my life. I mean, he changed over time and yes. A lot probably through our conversations. But when I would ask him about his feelings, you know, he was uncomfortable with me bringing anyone into his home Mhmm. His personal sphere who was not Jewish. And it's not that he felt negatively per se about anyone that he saw who was non-Jewish, but he had a built-in distrust, a built-in discomfort, because of what happened to him and his family and to a whole millions of people, millions of Jews in in Europe during that time. So why do I bring this up? First of all, I have, you know, my grandparents were like my best friends, as I said last time, you know, this person and I care about you as well, which is again why I'm asking these questions just like I did with my grandfather, who I could totally understand why he felt the way he felt, even if I wanted him to even if I wished he could feel different, even if I wished I could bring home someone who was a good friend of mine, who was just happened not to be Jewish, so that he could understand the people who I was close to in my life, that say that he could understand, like, you can trust people who are not Jewish, you can bring them into your home. But I know that I had a different reality than he had. Right? And so I had to actually learn I mean, it wasn't, you know, again, I know the history of the Holocaust, but it is in learning his personal experience where it drove home all the more, I get I like I can't fault you for having these discomforts. It makes complete sense, to be wary and to have that skepticism as you as you put it. So, yeah, I recognize that I lived in I lived in a different world than my grandfather. I'll and I lived in a different world than you, but I don't know that world unless I know that world. And thank you for sharing that because now I think I can couch it in turn in a context that you probably understand. So my experience is, and I think this this, I think I can say for many black people. My experience is the collective experience of all black people because we because it's racial and because our blackness, our, you know, looking and being part of the African diaspora is something you can't hide or run from, or at least most of us can and you shouldn't. You should be proud of your genetic makeup. And so for me, with respect to answer this question specifically about me, like, when did I into it and internalize that I need to watch over my physical safety? It's knowing the collective experiences of everyone else, whether in the past or in the present, even if it's just one incident in a year and knowing that could be me. Right? And there's a very deep appreciation, I would feel, in the black community of, you know, that could be you. I mean, there's a saying there before the grace of God go I, which is what I live my life by. You know, like, you know, like, that could be you. The insinuation behind that bible verse is it could be you, you know, who's experiencing the opposite end of the goodness of life, even though life is good all the time. Right? You know, the bad vicissitudes of life. And so for me, I just always I developed a framework of, okay, be on guard and preserve yourself, your physical self as much as you can. You know? So always be mindful of your environment, always be mindful of people's energy when that energy shifts, and like I said, learn how to manage it. Now have I been in situations like that in my life? No. But do I feel they could happen at any moment? Yep. Thank you for watching this episode of Healing Race and stay with us for a scene from our next video. If you wanna see more conversations like the one you just watched, please subscribe to our channel, share this video with friends and family, and like and comment on the video below. If you'd like to be a guest on one of our episodes and have an open, real conversation about race, email us at guests at healingracehow.com. And if there are topics you think we should cover, we'd love to hear them. So please email your ideas to topics at healingracehow.com. As always, thanks for your support. We look forward to continuing the conversation with you. Now, here's a scene from our next Healing Race. I've heard people talk about the talks about how to carry oneself, as a as a black person in America. Right? Yeah. So I know that there is a presence in in one's mind in in the community. Like when I was stopped at border patrol a few days ago coming back from Costa Rica, go ahead, Todd, but, yes, did and I and when I was stopped at border patrol, the first thing that came to mind is carry yourself. What's your presence? Just because it was 2 white agents, disarm them. Disarm them. Adjust your personality to disarm them. To watch the rest of that episode, go ahead and click the video below me. To see a different compelling healing race episode, you can click the video below me. We look forward to seeing you in the next video.